Art Verbotten, July 2007

"Art Verbotten" is the nom de guerre of the oldest experienced active Talossan citizen, who joined in 1985. He is currently Senior Justice of the High Court of the Talossan Republic. Interviewer: Miestrâ Schivâ

 

There seems to be no interest on the Kingdom's part to associate with the Republic. There's gotta be love and it can't be one sided if something like this were to happen. If anything I've seen more attempts to drive wedges between the two than anything, not that we'd need any more reasons to distrust one another.

 

 

Tell us about those mythical Milwaukee days in the late 70's / early 80's when you first met the young Ben Madison. What do you remember of the foundation of Talossa?


Mythical? I guess after all that has happened and has been documented they could be regarded as such, but they sure didn't feel that way at the time. We were just a bunch of 13 & 14 year old kids trying not to get trampled under foot in a Milwaukee Public HS with an enrollment of about 1100. I had spent my previous eight years at a private catholic grade school of about 100 kids, so my freshman year at this public institution was a bit of a culture shock.


I met Josh M. first. We had several classes together and became friends. We began sitting together in the lunch room and it was here that I met Dan. Josh already knew Dan from grade school (I think) and probably a few other classes. Soon after this I met Bob M. who had classes with and was on the debate and forensic teams with Dan. Dan knew Ben from grade school and he was also on the debate and forensics team. I didn't really get to know Ben until sophomore year when we had an early hour study hall together in the school library. JJ was also in that study hall. He was a year ahead of us and I already knew him from another mutual friend. Also in that study hall was Gary C. who was a year behind us, but whom I knew from stage crew. The other figure in all of this was Harry W. who went to Milwaukee Tech, but grew up on the eastside with Dan and Bob. Finally there were our teachers Jean W. and Florence Y. to round out the group of people that Ben initially inflicted Talossa upon that first year.


For me Talossa started in the library at school. A typical study hall there would involve JJ trying to do homework and either Ben or myself finding something more interesting to distract all of us with. The distractions were typically historical, religious, or political.


 

In fall of 1979, Jimmy Carter was in the White House, the U.S. economy was in the tank, disco was on the radio, the Iranian revolution had just taken place and the militants who started it had taken U.S. citizens hostage. There was also an ultra-conservative Republican named Ronald Reagan emerging as a viable candidate for President. Needless to say, our discussions were usually about politics. The head librarian was also involved with these discussions from time to time. When he wasn't involved he was usually yelling at us for being too loud or distracting.


I recall Ben approaching me in January of 1980, after the holiday break with a handwritten newspaper and a folder of papers which declared his bedroom as an independent state called Talossa. I don't actually recall my response. I'm sure it was something like "That's very nice Ben. Did you fall off the psychiatrists couch and hit your head again?" I assumed it was another idea he'd grow tired of after a few days or weeks, but every other day or so he'd have a new newspaper to show everyone. His regular collection of announcements, ideas, and his frequent dramatic shifts in religious and political beliefs were now being funneled into this new country of his and all of it was being documented in his newspapers. At this time he was also obsessed with languages so it was very natural for him to start creating a unique national language for Talossa. It all just sort of fit together.


Before Ben started encouraging his friends to become citizens of Talossa; he encouraged them to set up their own "World Singular Secessionist" states. Yours was the Kingdom of Thord. Tell us about it. How long before you got bored and gave it up?


Thord lasted from late January till about May or June of 1980. I don't remember if Ben encouraged me to do this, or I just decided to follow along, probably a bit of both, but I created it because it seemed like a fun idea at the time. I think JJ had created his within a day or two of mine so naturally we formed an alliance that ultimately led to the League of Singular Secessions (LOSS).


Thord was named after a created land one of my stoner friends dreamt up. The land of Thord had two rules.




I thought this was a great doctrine to found a singular secession on. Short, simple, and all authority accounted for. It was only later that I discovered the whole Norse tale of Thord and Erik and all that family blood feud stuff.


I recall drafting a short constitution, drawing a few maps of the place, and then declaring allegiance to the other fake countries that I knew of. Not much there really. Sometime in fall of that year I remember Ben asking me if I still had my folder with all the Thord stuff in it. I turned it all over him then except for a ring binder that I eventually handed over many years later. It had the Thordian crest on it and some other LOSS stuff as well.


You became a Talossan citizen in 1985, at about the right time to be involved in the first proper multi-party election. The Big Thick History tells us that Ben got you to run under the Communist Party banner. Tell us about that.


Good question. Not really sure I was even aware of that although I've been told that before by Ben. The key here might be the phrase "Ben got me to run..."


Understand that the mid 80's were my college years. I was working as much as I could to pay for my schooling. When I wasn't in school or at work I was probably celebrating with adult beverages and anything else that was available, but mostly adult beverages. During the time frame in question, given the right moment and blood alcohol, had Ben asked me to run on a Communist ticket I would have agreed to it. Speaking from a personal stand point I never really got a good handle on communism in the first place so I never saw it as all that viable. The Russian and Chinese versions of the ideology, which were the two that were thrown in my face most often by cold war propaganda, seemed horribly corrupt and flawed. It might have been my conservative upbringing, but I never saw how they could work. Even after I looked through the haze of propaganda I still didn't see any viability. Anyway there is also the chance that Ben got it wrong. For the longest time one of the official charts had me listed as a PM for a short period of time. I actively avoided the PM spot my entire career. It wasn't until I pointed this out to Ben that it got changed.

 


You seem to have an interesting history of quitting Talossa at pivotal moments. You quit Talossa after the Peculiarist election victory in 1990, heralding an era of near-collapse. You quit Talossa - I think - for a brief period in 1997, just before we Penguineans walked out. And - most famously - you quit Talossa on Black Tuesday, April 13th, 2004. Ben called you "the conscience of Talossa". Is that a fair assessment, and what do you make of this interesting historical pattern?


Desperate times called for desperate measures. Yes, I have ducked out when things were heading from horrible to downright pathetic but with good reason.


Both times I left it was because I hated it all, including myself, and didn't want any part of it any more. I also saw no hope of liking it again in the near future with the available personnel.


For the record I did not bail in 1997. I stepped down from the court and out of political life, but I was talked out of leaving by Geoff T. In both my 1990 and 2004 resignations, I left primarily because of the behavior of our King and the retaliatory behavior he was inciting in his enemies over an extended period of time. Everyone hated everyone and all you did was walk around on eggshells every time you spoke up. It was not pleasant to be part of the country at either of those times.


I love Talossa but, I have always tried to view it as a hobby, a form of entertainment, a recreational activity I could jump into and out of when necessary. I am involved in this voluntarily. If I feel that it is taking over my day to day existence and affecting it in a negative manner without resolve, I will do what is best for me. Sometimes this is not what is best for Talossa, but given the choice of me or Talossa, me always wins.


All three times I asked myself, "Does this activity (being a Talossan) have any redeeming qualities that would prevent me from walking away from it right now? Is there anything I can do to change what is happening here that won't degenerate my current mental health any further than it is? Will walking away from it all send the message to the rest of Talossa that they have killed the good spirit of the country?"

 


Twice the answers were NO, NO, and YES. In 1997 I couldn't say NO to the second question so I stayed on...after some coaxing.


Many of we latter day Talossans think that there is a definite schism in Talossan history in 96-97, the year that Talossa went properly online and cybercits started taking an increasingly important political and cultural role. To put it bluntly, some of us think it was at that point when Ben finally "lost it". The authoritarian and ruthless streak in his personality is pretty obvious throughout the history, but it seems that once the majority of active Talossans were words on a computer screen rather than people who lived around the corner, he decided he no longer needed to hold back and became the intolerant, bullying, "Mad King Ben". Speaking as someone who knew him all his adult life, how fair is this assessment?


IMHO the initial schism started as a technological one; Cybercits vs. Old Growthers. I think much of this was sparked on by the "we're not going to change cronyism of the PC leadership, namely Wes and JJ. Ben was already active online at this point but JJ and Wes never saw themselves involved in a computerized version of Talossa. Wes never was involved with one at all. They didn't even see themselves using computers for anything other than word processing back then and I think this made Ben uncertain about doing this. I will admit that in 1995 it seemed to me sort of far fetched that we'd be online and global until the Clockwork Orange party sold me on the idea at one of our gatherings.


I used to ask Ben every year of so starting about 1988 "Where do we want Talossa to go next." He always had an answer or a suggestion right up until about 1997. I asked him then and he admitted that Talossa was now bigger than he had ever imagined it becoming and that he had no answer for that question. That I couldn't get him to work on one should have set off red flags but it didn't.


Ben's attitude towards us in person didn't seem to change all that much although he did initially speak of differences between cybercitizens and old growthers. The cybercits thing faded away as we all adapted to the technology. I noticed that his online attitude seemed to deteriorate with each online war he got himself into. I first noticed this change around 1996 when he started to spar with some of the early micronationalists on the discussion boards. That's when the bug-nation thing hit. It got worse during the Penguinean affair and still worse with his divorce. After the Liberals bailed and he married Amy is when it just spiraled away out of control.


Let's get polemical for a moment. All the other long-term Talossans - s:reux Metáirâ, Lorentz, etc - are citizens of the Kingdom. Why are you a citizen of the Republic? What are the chances - as you see it - for Talossan unity?

 


I quit the Kingdom in April 04 for the reasons I listed in my previous answer. I could not see doing business with Ben as a possibility ever again. After the mass exodus of June 1, 2004 I received a thoughtful e-mail from the founders of the Republic asking me if I would be interested in joining and building a new and better Talossa. This one would be monarch free, truly democratic, emphasize rather than stifle creativity, and welcome the sincere micronationalists on the Internet rather than turn their nose up at them like self righteous snobs. So far the Republic has lived up to these promises and I plan to help it continue doing so.


IMHO the chances for a reunion are looking pretty slim with the current conditions. There seems to be no interest on the Kingdom's part to associate with the Republic. There's gotta be love and it can't be one sided if something like this were to happen. If anything I've seen more attempts to drive wedges between the two than anything, not that we'd need any more reasons to distrust one another.


Did you have any idea that Chris Gruber and his allies were planning to secede? Was it a big surprise to you?


No and Sort of.


There were a lot of e-mails flying around that entire spring.


I'd come home from work and there'd be 50 Talossan e-mails waiting for me each day where normally I'd get 2 or 3 a week, two of which would be JJ complaining about his computer needing fixing. I sensed something was brewing but I wasn't in on the plot at all. Martin sort of hinted at it, but never said anything directly to me. Had I been informed I would not have quit when I did.

 


After I did quit in April, I still kept getting all the e-mail.


I just wanted it to go away.


I recall asking to be taken off the mailing list because I did not care to know about something I was no longer part of. There was a small protest from Chris, but they complied anyway.


When I received the e-mail on June 2 announcing the secession, I immediately went to the site and was amazed at what they had done. I also noticed that more than a few lines of that letter of explanation from Michael Pope were taken from an essay that I had written a few months before explaining my position to him. I was quite flattered by this.


So the "Sort of" I mentioned means that I realized the folks involved with the coop owned and controlled all of the Kingdom's websites even though I warned Ben repeatedly that this was a bad thing. I didn't expect them to yank them out from under the Kingdom's nose the way they did but as I said before "Desperate times call for desperate measures."


As a High Court Justice you are not able to run for elective office in the Republic. Have you ever felt a desire to? Have you ever felt any interest in getting involved in party politics or the Chamber of Deputies?

 


If I really felt that strongly about it I would, but for the time being I think I have a more natural calling as a Justice.


I spent several years of my life learning how to analyze scripts, screen plays, play texts, and literary works in order to pick them apart by their elements. Tearing apart legislation requires the same skill set. I actually enjoy doing that more than constructing legislation. The construction process was always a tedious thing for me which is why I rarely drafted legislation. I inspired numerous laws that other folks took credit for writing. Had I been asked to write them I would have gotten bored and frustrated and never finished.


As for party politics, they take up an awful lot of time and time is something I don't have as much of any more. I've been debating getting more active with this but it'd have to be a really comfortable fit before I did.


As the founder of Florenciâ province, would you say that provincial politics, in either Kingdom or Republic, have a future?


Not until they become communities within themselves.


This question has been asked repeatedly and the nemesis to provincial politics in Talossa has always been national party politics. At the national level we understand it, but at the provincial level it is irrelevant.

 


First the people of the provinces need to know who their fellow provincial neighbors are. I'm in Florencia, but I'll be damned if I know who else is. I haven't had to know any of them for provincial purposes. In order to bring focus to the provinces they need to have a sense of community within. They need to be acquainted and need activities that reinforce this.


We're an Internet society so doing dinner won't work here. Just off the top of my head things like fantasy football leagues, chess tournaments, Video game competitions, talent contests posted on You-Tube, maybe a world cup fantasy tournament, might help get folks interacting besides reading what was written on other discussion boards.


Until the provinces start behaving like communities there will be no politics in them.


If you woke up in the morning and found that the Republic had voted you dictatorial powers for 24 hours, what would you do with them? Feel free to be creative.


-Make the dictatorial powers permanent.


-Resize Talossa to its traditional size east of the river.

 


-Reclaim Vuode and Mussolini Provinces making the country continuous once again.


-Annex Mussolini province to Florencia Province


-Change Vuode province's name to whatever Bill Cooper's Talossan last name is.


-Order the webmasters to go through the web portal and archive all the finished boards and eliminate all the dead ones at pain of death.


-Get all the links for all the Republics blogs, homepages, and newspapers to one site.


That's all I can think of for now.