Michael Pope, April 2005
Interviewer: J.K. Kelley
I didn't want to lose these friendships, to lose contact with my fellow citizens. And I was angry because I could trace all of these problems--every single one of them--to the feet of one person. Ben Madison.
Q: Michael Pope, thanks for taking the time to talk with me. Do you prefer ‘Michael’ or does anyone call you ‘Mike?’
A: I always go by Michael, simply because I think the name "Mike Pope" sounds harsh and choppy. "Michael Pope" sounds nicer on the ears.
Q: Then 'Michael' you shall remain. Where did you grow up?
A: I am what is known as a "military brat". When I was growing up, my father was an officer in the US Marine Corps, and we moved every few years. I was born in North Carolina, and lived in Hawaii; Northern Virginia (the DC area); my family's hometown of Douglas, Arizona; Bremerton, Washington; Copenhagen, Denmark and Fallbrook, California (in north San Diego county).
Q: All I know about your post-high school life is that you’re a USC Trojan, former Marine and you work at the Pentagon in some sort of IT capacity. Can you put some meat on those bare informational bones?
A: Sure. I attended USC right after high school, and participated in the NROTC officer-training program. I did not complete the program, but I spent a couple of years in the Marine Corps after college as an infantryman. I was in Desert Storm.
After I got out of the service, I moved to the Washington, DC area, where I had ideas of joining the US Foreign Service. Although I passed the written exam several times, I was not successful in getting past the oral exams. (Truth is, only about 1% of people applying for the Foreign Service are actually hired, so I don't feel too bad about it.)
I ended up eventually in the IT field, round about 10 years ago. Before that, I worked for a cult leader who tried to publish an exercise manual for female reproductive organs--seriously! I then worked briefly for an environmental policy think tank before getting into IT. I have worked mostly as a contractor to various government agencies. Right now, I actually work (as a contractor) for the EPA, not the Pentagon. I have also worked for the Surgeon-General's office, the National Library of Medicine, the DC power utility (Pepco), and the US Geological Survey, all as a contractor.
Q: A cult leader? Female reproductive organs? That sounds like a pretty interesting job. Can you tell me more?
A: Sure. I was an employee of a company handling drug treatment and AIDS prevention contracts for the DC and federal governments, and I worked directly for the president, who was a leader of a cult called ECKANKAR. I got ensnared into a side project of his to market an exercise manual for the circumvaginal muscle--the exercises were touted to stop urinary incontinence and enhance sexual pleasure.
It was a bizarre situation, we worked long, long hours and then had a ridiculous direct marketing strategy where we got a mailing list from Prevention magazine (mainly elderly women) and from Self magazine (mainly younger women)--then proceeded to try to sell younger women on the promise of ending incontinence and sell elderly women on the promise of better sex. Leaving the company was one of the best experiences of my life!
A year later, a co-worker who left the same time I did called me to tell me to check out the business section of the Washington Post--to see that the company had filed for bankruptcy! I found out just today that my former boss recently broke with ECKANKAR and has started his own movement. Interesting...
Q: How does someone get a job like that? I'm picturing a want ad: "ECK Master seeks articulate technical writer for manual on female reproductive apparatus. Ownership of said apparatus not necessary, but familiarity a must. Apply in person."
A: (Laughs.) Actually, he started with his core staff--three of us who worked on grant proposals, his executive assistant and his secretary. He got three medical specialists to review the manual--one gynecologist and two "sexologists". We had about 7 or 8 desktop publishing temps to put the book together. He then decided to claim in the advertising that "17 medical experts" were involved in preparing the books. He also got ahold of a perineometer, handed it to his assistant and told her to try it out and then pass it along to his secretary. Which, if you know what a perineometer1 is, isn't the most tasteful suggestion...
Q: (Laughs.) No, it isn't. Later I'll ask more, but for now let's stick with this: since you use the word 'cult' to describe ECKANKAR, how would you characterize its environment from your inside view?
A: To tell the truth, those of us working for his company didn't really have any kind of "inside view", as he didn't really proselytize. He did bring aboard some Eckists.
My use of the word "cult" is based on what I have read about the group, and doesn't refer to their teachings, but rather to what appears to be an atmosphere of fear inside the group, specifically surrounding the idea of leaving the group. Members are told that if they ever leave ECKANKAR, that they will be trapped in the lower reaches of the Astral Plane until such time as the Mahanta takes pity on them. This is actually written in their scripture, the Shariat-ki-Sugmad.
But I never attended an ECKANKAR meeting. And my use of the word "cult" isn't intended to convey images of a group of Jonestowners living on a compound--Eckists lead ordinary lives and hold ordinary jobs.
Q: I bet there’s no beer in the lower reaches of the Astral Plane as they characterize it. I gather you don’t stress too much about the threatened consequences?
A: Well, I was never an Eckist--but I did worry a bit about what happened to former staffers who left the company--most of them had problems receiving their final checks, thanks to red tape that seemed to magically crop up!
Q: Obviously some of the on-the-job training took, since you’re a family man. Tell us a bit about your Dandelions, and the lady who did the hard part of bringing them into your life.
A: I met my wife Jane while I was still a Marine. Right before I got out, I was sent to New York City for "Fleet Week", a kind of dog-and-pony show for the civilians. Jane was a USO volunteer, and I met her at a USO sponsored party on board the USS Intrepid (a decommissioned aircraft carrier now serving as a museum). I literally saw her from across the room and had to pick my jaw up from the floor! Despite the large ratio of men to women, I managed to talk to her, and we met for a "tour of the city" before I went back home. We kept in touch, and later she moved down to DC and we were married in June of 95--so our tenth anniversary is coming up!
Jane manages a retail costume/dance shop. I am continually discovering just what an amazing person she is, and I am very thankful she is a part of my life. We have two children, 5 year old twins Geoffrey and Danielle. They are currently in kindergarten, and are very bright, happy kids. Both of them are Dandelions, as they were born after I became a Talossan citizen. They are at a great age, because they are old enough now where they have their own opinions and are very communicative.
Q: You’re rightly proud of them all. As a former NROTC midshipman, you were subject to a very exacting code of conduct. Having been though some ROTC myself, I know that leaves its mark. Do you feel that your NROTC and Marine Corps experience shaped your sense of ethics, or did it merely codify what was already ingrained?
A: Good question. I think for the most part, it reinforced and solidified what I had already learned at home from my parents--but going through the process myself meant I actually experienced what I had theoretical knowledge of before, and so the NROTC/Marine Corps experience allowed me to "take ownership", so to speak, of the values I had already learned.
Q: You’ve long been an outspoken real-life political conservative and patriot, certainly Talossa’s most articulate one. Your demonstrated Talossan patriotism doesn’t need an interview question; but would you also characterize yourself as a Talossan conservative?
A: That is a very ironic question, considering I was one of the leaders of the Revolution. (Laughs.) When I was in the Kingdom, I definitely considered myself a Talossan conservative--tradition was important to me, as was the idea of sticking with the "tried and true" ways of doing things, and supporting the monarchy.
Since the Republic was formed, my views have been a little more in flux. I still find value in much of what developed naturally during the 20+ years of the Kingdom, but certain other traditional marks of Talossanity I have discarded. For example, I no longer use the term "azul", because for me the term has "Benite" connotations.
Q: I reckoned you would enjoy that irony, but I’m going to stick with real world politics here a bit. Were you a conservative from your earliest political awareness?
A: Yes. I took an academic interest in politics back in grade school, but started to form my views in junior high. In part, they were outgrowths of my parent's views, but I read a lot and adopted views on my own. I read Barry Goldwater's Conscience of a Conservative early on, and I actually took to Ronald Reagan months before my parents did. Oddly enough, another book that influenced me back in 8th grade was the campaign book by the 1980 Libertarian candidate Joe Clark.
Q: I’ve known people, for example my father-in-law, who find ways to let politics actually disrupt friendships. I get the exact opposite read from you: that you don’t permit this to happen, at least not from your end of a friendship. Since I have the same ethic, I’d like to know more about your own philosophy about political differences and personal friendship.
A: I found in high school and college that many of the people I enjoyed hanging around with had very different political views from my own. I've always loved debating, and I have very often been in the minority in my political views in any given group. I've always tried to separate the personal from the political, and I don't mind a good debate when both sides keep it respectful.
Having lived thru the Clinton years, I also understand how it feels to see someone you despise win an easy re-election--so I didn't take any of the post-election anti-Bush vitriol personally. Considering that many of my wife's views are different from my own, this is, I think, a good approach to take!
Q: Was Clinton president when you were a Marine?
A: No--I got out in July of 1992. I remember reading about Clinton as a candidate when I was about to get out. I honestly didn't pay much attention to him, because I thought of him as a lightweight. Big mistake... *wry laugh*
Q: Now that we know you a bit better, here’s the question everyone knows is coming: how did you discover Talossa?
A: By web surfing! I was looking around for interesting stuff, and somewhere I heard about Hutt River Province in Australia. Through a websearch, I found Ben Madison's "Micronations Page"--a long list of various serious, semi-serious and hobby micronations. This page has long since been removed from the Internet, by the way. I had recently read an article in the "Washington Post" about a town in Maryland that seceded from the US while their bridge was being repaired--the Maryland legislature voted to recognize the secession and then to readmit them when the repairs were complete. I sent this clipping along to the proprietor of the Micronations Page, and commented "Talossa looks like fun."
Ben Madison wrote back and started a cordial conversation, and basically invited me to join. I looked over the Witt and decided it looked like fun, and went ahead and applied. Ián Metairia asked me some questions, in his capacity as a Cort Justice, and I started up a good conversation with him as well. And when Chris Gruber became PM, he sent a nice reply to my email of congratulations.
Q: So Ben Madison was your earliest Talossan friend, and the proximate reason you signed up?
A: Pretty much, yeah. Of course, I had no idea that I would get as involved as I did.
Q: When exactly were you naturalized as a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa?
A: 1998, shortly after Grubi became PM - probably April.
Q: Give us the Talossan political backdrop of those times. Was there any controversy going on?
A: Oh, yeah. Dan Wardlow had just left Talossa (and the PM-ship). There was an election just before I joined, this was when the Peace and Freedom Party attempted to unify the opposition, but lost to the PC juggernaut. And Penguinea was a sore point for Ben--he actually warned me about them in our early email conversations.
Q: So you knew of the Penguineans only by reputation, and what you heard was bad?
A: Yes. They were, according to what I heard, a group of hate-filled ex-Talossans who were harassing prospective citizens like myself.
Q: Did you suspect at all that this was pre-emptory indoctrination?
A: I was probably a little skeptical at first, but I followed the debates on Wittenberg, and Ben seemed very reasonable and persuasive. And my other contacts (Ián M/Grubi) had nothing good to say about Wardlow or the Penguineans, either. And it certainly appeared at the time that the PC had massive popular support, since I didn't know about the pocket votes yet. So any suspicions I had were drowned out, sadly.
Q: I can't resist. Let's imagine that you, for whatever reason, had a psychic reading in May 1998. And the psychic told you that within seven years, Ben would be calling you a neo-Penguinean, and you'd be working closely with its people to form an anti-monarchist Talossa. Tell me how you might have reacted.
A: Ha! Well, I would probably would not have believed it, taking the stance "there's no mystic energy field controlling my destiny". On the other hand, I could well have been scared away from Talossa altogether!
Q: Besides the obvious inducement implicit in the party’s name, what motivated you to join the Progressive Conservative Party?
A: Everyone I got to know during my prospectivehood was in the PC. Also, I thought the PC clearly out-argued the PFP during the election campaign. This was, I realized later, because the PFP members were waylaid by Dan Wardlow's renunciation, and were reacting somewhat defensively. But the arguments made by the PC at the time were more appealing to me.
Q: Did you guys ever realize that the full acronym for that was ‘PCP?’
A: I hadn't heard that, no... (Laughs.)
Q: Like Chris Gruber, wasn’t it a relatively short time before they offered you the top job?
A: Not really, because Chris was in office for about a year or so. However, it was a relatively short time (a week or two) before Chris offered me the Deputy PMship, which was the second top-most job.
Q: I believe you were the longest serving PM in Talossan history. How do you characterize your administration in hindsight?
A: It was successful in many ways, especially if you look at it in purely political terms. However, I think the mass renunciation of the Liberals showed that the political "triumphs" were very costly, both to my own sense of right and wrong and to the country as a whole.
Q: You were a longtime political ally of Ben Madison. What was your political relationship like at first?
A: At first, I was a big defender of Ben. This served to get me noticed early on, I think. Later, we clashed on issues of US politics, but I kept that compartmentalized from Talossan affairs.
I realized I had "arrived" within the PC when Ben asked me to mediate in a dispute between him and Ián M. in the PC leadership. Ben was threatening to leave the PC. Ultimately I played no role in the reconciliation between them, which was effected by a face-to-face meeting at the local Greek eatery, but I was impressed that I had been asked to mediate.
Q: Maybe the gods of the eatery watched over you. What was the first major external flap or issue the Kingdom faced on your watch?
A: External issue? Not sure--by the time I became PM, external ties were almost nonexistent. Actually, as Grubi's deputy, I had initiated a negotiation phase with Penguinea, under the terms of the treaty, but that came to nothing, mainly because we never got our act together on this end.
One internal flap with external implications was my selection of Ián Anglatzarâ as Minister for Micronational Affairs. That was also my first big Talossan disagreement with Ben, who hated the idea of Ián being in a position to deal with "bug nations". My reasoning for the appointment was twofold - because Ián wanted the job (always important when the government is run by volunteers), but also to give the Liberal Party a stake in the government. I didn't want them to be completely marginalized, because I didn't see that anything good would come from that.
Q: So you were trying to pitch a broader tent, but Ben already had a vendetta against Ián?
A: Yes. One that at the time I never understood. Ben would rail about how hateful and vindictive Ián was, but my interaction with Ián was exactly the opposite. Eventually, I decided that since we had a policy of "no micronational diplomacy", I would replace the position of Minister of Micronational Affairs with a webpage saying "thanks for your inquiry, but no thanks." By this time, if I recall correctly, Ián had already quit the cabinet, but I thanked him publicly for his dedicated service. I wasn't going to not do that just because Ben hated him.
Q: Do you think that put a permanent question in Ben's mind about your unswerving loyalty to all matters Madison?
A: Perhaps. At the time, Ben and I were also arguing about the Clinton impeachment, and when he wrote about me in Střtanneu or on the PM Page, he tended to bring this up in a fashion that was humorous to him, but slightly nasty towards me. That annoyed me a little bit, because I felt he wasn't reciprocating the "separation of real-world/Talossan politics" rule that I was trying to follow.
Q: Were you around when Matt Dabrowski made his bid for Kingdom citizenship?
A: Yes. I was very skeptical at first of Dabrowski, and a little offended when he started picking fights with the people who would vote on his citizenship. I later felt he had straightened up a bit, and really felt bad when he was rejected in his bid for citizenship. I actually sent him an email to buck up his spirits after that defeat. Later, when he came back for a second try, he asked me to support him, and I did.
Once Dabrowski was in, of course, he started attacking Gruber as PM--in fact, he was the proximate cause, I think, in Gruber's resignation. I saw his energy, and offered him a cabinet post. Again, I had ulterior and multiple motives for this--I wanted to harness his energy, but I also wanted him to have a stake in my success (so he wouldn't rock the boat), and finally, I wanted to get him all tied up with revamping the legal code so he wouldn't be able to cause any mischief.
Q: I once heard Dabrowski characterized as the only person who ever really wanted into Talossa but was rejected (before myself, of course)2. Did the Dabrowski Affair change the political climate of the Regipats?
A: I don't really think so, the atmosphere was already very charged. Ben was the single biggest supporter of Matt, and I think some of the opposition were very opposed to him, but it already an acrimonious relationship.
Q: You were PM during my own brief and rather acrimonious prospectivehood in the Kingdom. Is it safe to assume I got chewed up pretty well in private PC counsels?
A: Yes and no. I remember Ben was very much against you, and he worked very hard trying to get support for this. I don't recall anyone else taking such an intense dislike to you. Speaking personally, I remember that I thought Ben's attacks on your religious beliefs were a cheap shot, below-the-belt. I sincerely regret that I didn't call him on it. But later, when you came back to try the second time, I accepted Ben's reasoning that something you said--where you mentioned "true Talossans" in an apparent reference to opposition members, showed that you'd be a poor fit.
Q: This interview is supposed to be me mining you for revelations, not revealing my own, but I'd like your reaction to just such a case. In private, Ián A. told me during those times that the best way for me to have a hope was to shun the TLP, hint that if I was let in I would join the PC, and try to stay out of arguments with Ben. Do you think that would have worked?
A: Not really. Ián's instincts were right, but I think Ben already had you on his bad list, and I don't think he would have relented for any reason without the passage of some time.
Q: Do you think Ben was desperate to keep me out?
A: Yes, as I recall he was pretty frantic about trying to convince everyone that you were a dangerous nutjob. And he was all the more frantic because people weren't really buying into that idea.
Q: To what lengths did he go, to your knowledge? I've always suspected he spent that whole month on the phone and composing e-mails, pleading, cajoling, browbeating and threatening.
A: He may well have spent time on the phone. I remember he spent a lot of time sending pleading, cajoling and threatening emails to the PC members.
As an aside, I seem to recall that this was around about the same time that he was indulging in a particularly vicious religious argument with Phil Ledgerwood. Vicious from Ben's side, that is--I remember post titles like "God Hates You, Says Phil" (not an exact quote). I wonder now if he was on a roll, triumphantly blasting everyone else's False Religions.
Q: A topic which will come as soon as I complete this rather self-indulgent line of questioning. Do not bind the mouths of the kine that tread the grain, and all that. (Laughs.) If I remember right, you abstained on my citizenship bid. Did you take any heat for not voting Contra?
A: I think Ben sent me an email expressing his disappointment that I hadn't voted against you. By that time, though, I had been dealing with Ben as PM for a couple of years, and didn't have any qualms about crossing him on votes.
If you recall, I mentioned that Ben had brought up a quote from a post you made when you returned, where you used the phrase "true Talossans" who you said, I believe, would support you. Ben used that line to argue that you were divisive and a bad fit for Talossa. This was his after he had mainly failed to paint you as a religious whack-o and bigot. I partially bought into the idea that you were divisive, I admit. But by that time I was pretty fed up with Ben's constant attacks, so I was pretty determined not to vote Contra.
Q: To me, it seemed like Ben had—he’ll love this terminology—cast a sort of spell over the Talossan population. Any comment on this characterization, from someone who by his own admission used to work for a cult leader?
A: Ben sort of wore people down until they voted his way. I don't think anyone really bought his line about you being a nut--except perhaps some of the offline folks who only got their information from Ben. But he did wear people down to vote his way.
I often thought of Ben as having some of the characteristics of a cult leader. I just always thought of him as a fairly inept one, because there was always a fairly large number of people publicly opposed to him at any given time. But he had some of the traits: a tendency to view his opinions as Absolute Truth, an intolerance toward opposing views, a habit of trying to isolate Talossans from outside influences (especially ex-citizens), a sophistic ability to bend the truth into reasonable-sounding lies, and a tendency to try to use fear to keep people in line.
Q: Phil Ledgerwood was a pleasant, creative, popular fellow. Why did he leave the Kingdom?
A: I have no idea why, exactly, he left. I was pretty good friends with him and often emailed him, and he never told me why. I have always speculated that it was because he just got fed up with Ben constantly attacking his religious beliefs, and decided life was too short to deal with such a person. But that's just a guess on my part.
Q: I remember the TLP as your PC’s most credible political opposition in those days. Do you think they could have gained a share in government had they played their cards better?
A: Perhaps. It would have been difficult, given the way Ben felt about them. I would have preferred for them to have been involved. As I said earlier, one reason I wanted Ián A. in my Cabinet was to give the Liberals a stake in the Government. I was disappointed when they bloc-voted "No" on the Vote of Confidence even as a fellow party member was in the Cabinet, and that may have soured me on working with them. Jay Shorten, who served as Opposition Leader for awhile, was also sometimes, in my opinion, needlessly combative. Which, of course, was the job description of Opposition Leader, so I don't fault him on that.
Later on, the Liberals mainly slid into political inactivity. They renounced their seats in the Cosâ as a bloc, I recall, and after that things seemed to quiet down a bit. My thinking was "great, there isn't as much fighting anymore". But this was deceptive. I thought that since the Liberals stopped fighting so much with the PC, things were getting better. In fact, I think the Liberals were withdrawing themselves emotionally from Talossa itself, a natural reaction since they had been scapegoats for so long.
If I had known how they really felt before their mass citizenship renunciation, I would have tried to do something about it. I am not at all sure what I could have done about it, though--it may have been too late. I would have put a Liberal in my Cabinet again in a heartbeat, without worrying about Ben's reaction--but Ben would have reacted, and his reaction would have been loud and vociferous--and would probably have accelerated their desire to get away from Talossa and Ben.
Q: Did you have any idea what Ben would use for a punching bag once he'd finished gloating and excoriating over the TLP exit?
A: No. I knew that wasn't the end of it. We no longer had Penguinea to kick around, we no longer had any dealings with so-called "bug nations", and the main opposition party was gone. I guess I assumed the RCT would eventually be next, but I knew the relative peace wouldn't last long.
Q: You gave way as PM to Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h, also of the PC. How’d that come about?
A: By this time, I had been PM for a long time, longer than anyone in previous Talossan history. I had in fact discussed stepping down some time prior with the PC, and had agreed to stay on for another term so we could figure out who my successor would be. I finally called Ben one evening and told him I was ready to go. He brought up Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h's name as a potential successor.
I had thought of Gödafrďeu myself--I thought he was capable of it, and I liked him. But Ben was the first one to mention it. This is significant, because on Ben's "PM Page", he calls Gödafrďeu "Pope's hand-picked successor". That isn't true - Ben was the one who brought up his name.
Anyway, I emailed Gödafrďeu, asked him how he felt about the idea, and then we talked by phone. I don't think he was expecting it, but he was definitely interested in the job. I named him Deputy PM, and then we arranged for the transfer of power to take place during Talossafest, when Gödafrďeu was on Talossan soil.
Q: On that same page, I believe, Ben debilitates your legacy--the opposite of 'rehabilitates'. Once you were illustrious, now you are a sad descent into wrongness. This is your chance to reply to that.
A: Ben's section on me is kind of ridiculous. In the same paragraph, he criticizes me for cementing one-party dominance and for bringing opposition members into my cabinet. How can anyone take that seriously?
Q: Can you answer the question you just posed? Speculate, at the least?
A: Hmm... Well, anyone who was actually there will already have an opinion of my conduct in office, and I don't expect they would be swayed by Ben's rewrite. Most of the current active population of the Kingdom, though, weren't there--and they might be more amenable to accepting Ben's version of events. But still, if anyone really thinks about it, the contradictions are obvious. And, if you think about it, perhaps that clumsily-written paragraph with the obvious contradictions might in fact spur a new Kingdomite to question Ben's account of my term--and then to start questioning other things Ben has written?
Q: Do you think the decreased number of eyewitnesses correlates to Ben’s tendency to change his version of history?
A: That's a good point. I don't think Ben could get away with blatantly rewriting the past if there were more active Kingdomites who remember that time. However, I wouldn’t say that Ben routinely rewrites history. In my experience, he writes things once, his way, in Ar Pats. It's not the truth, it's Ben's caricature of the truth, but I don't recall these sorts of changes before the Republic was formed. Going back and changing legacies, rewriting good guys into heels, this is a new tactic, and, I think, a somewhat desperate one.
Q: When did you first start to see yourself diverging from Ben Madison politically, and why?
A: Almost from the start I was at loggerheads with Ben over US politics. The Clinton impeachment, the 2000 Republican primaries (Bush vs McCain), Elian Gonzalez, Gore v. Bush. We were constantly arguing. For the most part, we were allies on Talossan politics, though.
I think the first divergence was when I was serving as Immigration Minister after Gödafrďeu became PM. Ben started to attack me for not being more active in the job. I was a little offended by that. Especially since I didn't think Ben had been very generous with me after I stepped down from the PM'ship. He mentioned a knighthood to me one time--when he visited DC on his honeymoon and brought me the National Archives. He never mentioned it again. I'm not saying I deserved a knighthood, but some official recognition for having served as PM for so long would have been nice.
Q: Had you in fact been slacking off at all as IM, and if so, why?
A: My company lost the contract I was on at that time, and I was busy trying to find a new job for a couple of months. So, yes, I was not as active in the job as I could have been. But Ben claimed to have sent test emails to my Immigration account to see if I was responding and there were no such test messages.
Q: This may be getting a bit ahead, but what was the point of no return for you and Ben?
A: The point of no return was when he sacked Gödafrďeu and installed Maxime Charbonneau as PM. I saw this as an illegal coup d'etat, and I asked the PC and Grey Congress Party to elect me Opposition Leader, because I was ready to fight.
Q: I’m feeling uncommonly journalistic today. I have this irresistible urge to focus on sleaze rather than substance, so I’d best get it out of my system. Think back as best you can, and tell me: is there any one hidden fact from your days of political alliance with Ben—or your falling out—that hardly anyone now knows, and that Ben wishes it would stay that way? A ‘dirtiest secret,’ as it were?
A: That's a good question... I don't know. I don't think I ever told anyone about how I felt slighted by Ben after stepping down as PM. Does that qualify?
Q: Any recollection you might have qualifies. My thinking is that there was much private PC discussion, proposed actions, arguments. I'm curious about the side of Ben you had access to, the side most others could not see.
A: Ben is a pretty transparent individual. The public Ben is pretty similar to the private Ben--friendly in person, but a bully behind the keyboard. I don't think he really believes his own rhetoric, but he does try to convince himself, I think. But what he said in public isn't that different from what he said in private.
I will say one thing, though. When I was the National Archivist, no matter how vitriolic he got towards other people, he always seemed to be pulling his punches with me. The reason why is obvious. However, since then, and since I returned the archives to him, he hasn't made me out to be the villain that Grubi, Marti-Pair and Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h are.
In fact, at one point he told the Kingdomites that Maxime had reported to him that the Republic was split into two factions, the radical followers of Gruber, and the moderate followers of Pope. We know that isn't true, but it almost seems to me like he was trying to go easy on me in the hopes that he could lure me (and presumably my vast legion of followers) back into the Kingdom.
Q: He describes the return of the Archives like he was half surprised you sent them back. Do you read it that way, and if so, does that offend you?
A: I don't read it that way. What I do see is that he tries to use the fact that I sent them back as a way to score political points. I sent them back, he says, because in my heart of hearts, I know that we are wrong and he is right, and that the Kingdom is the true Talossa.
In fact, I sent them back simply because it was his property--he saved up all that stuff over the years. A lot of it was useless crap, like brochures from Sweden, doodles he made in junior high school, and homemade scripts for episodes of Electro-Woman and Dyna-Girl. Regardless, these accumulated documents were very important to him. Keeping them from him would have been a pretty cruel thing to do. And that has nothing to do with politics.
Of course, one main reason I sent them back is because he was talking about driving to my house to pick them up. The prospect of finding Ben camped out on my front porch was not a pleasant one, and he does know where I live! (Laughs.)
Q: (Laughs.) Good thing he isn't 'violent and dangerous.'
A: That reminds me of Ollie North's answer to a Senate committee about Abu Nidal. If Ben were violent and dangerous, I wouldn't care so much, after all I used to be a Marine infantryman. But I do have my wife and kids to worry about. (Laughs.)
Q: When the Grey Congress (GCP) and Black Hand (MN) broke away from the PC in the span of two days, the Kingdom’s longtime political status quo was demolished. Tell us about the PC’s reaction as you recall it.
A: The Grey Congress left on good terms. We all wished them well. In fact, Ián M. had brought up the idea of dissolving the pot-pie blob because of real-world political differences between the conservatives and the liberals within the PC, so it wasn't exactly a new idea. But we all thought the GCP would be a potential ally.
The Black Hand departure was a little less cordial. Still, we thought they were another potential ally, and Ben claimed that his vision for the party was of a hyper-patriotic splinter group. It was only sometime later when it developed into a mass movement.
Q: As Opposition Leader, what did you hope to accomplish?
A: Frankly, I hoped to drive Maxime out of office. I saw him being there as an insult to democratic self-government.
Q: Why did you see him that way?
A: The election was over. Gödafrďeu was pretty much affirmed as PM. The proper way for Ben to have removed him would have been to arrange for him to lose the Vote of Confidence. Instead, he was summarily fired and replaced with Maxime. Many of us were of the opinion that this was in fact illegal. It was certainly unethical, in my view.
Q: Trick or treat! Please tell us about the highlights of the Halloween Crisis as you recall it.
A: The roots of the controversy were in Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h's relative slowness in naming a Cabinet and choosing a DPM, who would have been his presumed successor, given his announced intent to retire. Gödafrďeu has always taken upon himself most of the blame for this, but what I saw was Ben childishly demanding instant responses. Some of us do have a life outside of Talossa, you know. (Laughs.)
Ben organized a Joint Statement with the Grey Congress, which would have denounced the PC for stonewalling. When we got wind of this, we contacted Gruber to give him our side of the story. Gruber decided not to go along with the Joint Statement, which left the Black Hand issuing a "joint statement" on it's own.
To my mind, that one incident is what irrevocably earned Gruber the enmity of Ben. Months later, after accusing Gruber of being a violent criminal, Ben offered to make peace as long as Gruber admitted he was wrong about the Joint Statement, so I think I am right about this point. According to Ben, the Black Hand regarded firing Gödafrďeu and replacing him with Maxime as a "nuclear option." Ben later published his party's internal correspondence as though it were the definitive accounting of the entire crisis, and it does appear they all agreed the other parties would "go ballistic". They did it anyway.
As Opposition Leader, the first thing I tried to do was to undermine Maxime's legitimacy as PM. This wasn't too hard to do, as his response to the criticism was to drop out of sight. That allowed me the irony of using his favorite criticism of the PC, "do-nothings", against him. Ben stepped in to assure us all that Maxime and the Black Hand were working behind the scenes to enact an agenda--which of course allowed me to charge they were conspiring in smoke-filled rooms rather than living up to their own campaign promises of open government. Then came the Royal Renunciation--when Ben Madison himself quit Talossa.
Q: Or pretended to.
A: Right. This was a major crisis--and the PM's response was to blame the PC and then fall silent. It was left to me, as Opposition Leader, to publicly rally the citizenry to deal with the loss of the Head of State, although I was pretty sure Ben would be back before the deadline. As the day went on, however, I remember growing more and more optimistic about the future of a Ben-less Talossa. When he actually did come back, my heart sank, and I'm sure a lot of other people had the same reaction.
Eventually, Ben approached us for negotiation. He met with Ián M. for the famous "Noodle Summit", and made a series of promises--including one to stay out of partisan politics in the future. Maxime was removed as PM, and Gödafrďeu was returned to office. Quedeir Castiglia became his Deputy, and he was an acceptable choice to the other coalition parties (where Maxime had been someone who was unanimously opposed by the PC and Grey Congress from the beginning.) The Noodle Summit, and the return to the "status quo ante" was pretty much the end of the Halloween Crisis.
Q: A host of questions. Let's see: so do you think the appointment of Maxime was basically a gratuitous slap in the Oppositional face?
A: Yes. Ben had proposed Maxime, to universal opposition from the PC and Grey Congress--who, at the time, were coalition partners rather than the Opposition. So, to my mind, appointing Maxime was a deliberate provocation.
Q: And there's no doubt in your mind that Ben's renunciation was a cheap stunt?
A: None whatsoever. Although I think he also had an ulterior motive - to see how people responded to it. To see who would try to urge him to stay and who wouldn't.
Q: So it was a loyalty test of sorts?
A: That would be a good way to put it. Although it was also a cheap and dramatic political stunt.
Q: Your statement that you were disappointed to see him back speaks volumes. Let's play Harry Turtledove. What might have been?
A: We would have had to resolve some issues about the Head of State. There was no Regent, so we would have had to figure something out. That would have been difficult, given that the Black Hand still controlled the Government, but they wouldn't have lasted long in the face of the universal opposition of the Opposition--and no Ben to rally the pocket voters and give them the illusion of speaking for the majority.
The end result would have been something similar to the Republic, only more "traditional". There is one important respect in which it would have been different, though.
Q: Then you must tell us!
A: Without going through the crucible of the following 6 months, I doubt we would have been as open to change as the Republic is--and I doubt we would have been as open to the return of the Talossan Diaspora.
Q: What was the aspect of the Crisis most destructive to Talossan harmony?
A: The in-your-face aspect of the Charbonneau appointment. Before that, the three major parties were coalition partners. After the Black Hand broke and appointed Maxime, we had become enemies.
Q: Please try and speculate a bit. Would you have been as strongly opposed to Max in less turbulent times?
A: Probably, yes. I saw Max as someone who would not make a good PM, because he was a gadfly rather than a team player. He had a habit of alienating people instead of working with them, and instead of trying to find common ground, he had a record of finger-pointing. However, had Max legitimately won the office of PM, I would have tried to work with him as Opposition Leader. Of course, had he legitimately won office, I would probably not have been riled up enough to seek the Opposition Leader position.
Q: What was your greatest personal ethical dilemma as a citizen of the Kingdom?
A: I think that would be my reaction to the way the Liberals were treated by Ben. I mentioned earlier that I probably would not have been able to do anything to help the Liberals at the late stage, just before their renunciation--but I think I could have, and should have, stood up for them more earlier on.
For example, when Ián A. was my Minister for Micronational Affairs, Ben attacked him constantly, claiming he was vicious and vindictive. I knew that was pure bunk from my own interactions with Ián. Eventually he quit the cabinet, and the SoS job, in what I can only imagine was frustration at having to deal with Ben's attacks.
I don't know what I could have done to stop Ben. But for the sake of my own sense of right and wrong, I wish I had stood up and said "this is bull, and I will no longer tolerate it."
Q: There is something very Talossan about a situation where you find yourself wishing you had stuck up for a group of Liberals.
A: It is ironic, because on just about every aspect of policy, I had legitimate disagreements with them. I would never have voted for them, or supported most of their agenda. But they were not the divisive people Ben made them out to be. They were not the problem--my own political ally, Ben, was the problem.
Q: Ben tried to paint Chris as a wife-beating, violent felon. Share with us, if you will, the thoughts that went through your mind as the smear campaign unfolded.
A: I couldn't believe that Ben was seriously forwarding this argument. The whole thing was ludicrous, and it was very difficult for me to grasp that he seriously expected people to believe him.
I remember one exchange in particular. One of the first times Ben called Chris a "violent felon", I challenged him. Ben's response was "You don't believe me? Why?" I was dumbfounded, because Ben had leveled his charge without giving any supporting evidence, and he apparently expected me to believe him, just because he said so!
Q: You weren't being a good follower.
A: No, I guess I wasn't! (Laughs.)
Q: So would it be safe to say that Ben's credibility with you took a major drop as a result?
A: I basically found it impossible from that point on to believe a word he said. I lost all respect for him as a person, as well.
Q: Is that when you began to sympathize with Chris, or did that start at a different time?
A: I started sympathizing with Chris back during the Halloween Crisis--which was the root of the Ben-Grubi Feud, but which did in fact predate it.
During the Halloween Crisis, Ben was working hard to try to force Gruber out, and Chris felt isolated. At the time, we had a joint PC-GCP mailing list, and I remember Gruber--and Lisa--complaining about him being hung out to dry. I think he thought that the PC might reach an accord with the MN and then basically abandon him. I remember promising him that I would not let that happen.
Q: Your ringside seat for the Ben-Chris feud is a historical diamond mine. At what stage, in your view, did that feud go beyond all possible reconciliation?
A: When Ben charged Chris with being a violent criminal, and revealed he had been investigating Chris' background. At that point, it was no longer a Talossan feud, but something with potentially terrible real-world consequences. At one point, Ben promised, on Wittenberg, to try to intervene to screw up Gruber's child custody hearing. That is unforgivable.
Q: When Ben lost his suit against M-P over the election rules, with Chris as counsel, what did your PC make of the suit and its result?
A: The PC backed M-P and his rules, so we were very pleased. The rules were put into place to ensure that Ben would have a difficult time stuffing the ballot box, which we all thought was the only possible way to defeat the Black Hand at the election.
Q: Let's talk about pocket votes. Do you think Ben actually contacted all his offline voters at all times, or do you think he just decided how they were voting?
A: I am convinced that he did not actually contact them all. The reason I think this is because the PC, and the other parties, tried to contact the same voters, and were often unable to do so.
What I think normally happened was that Ben would go all out to try to contact everyone and tell them his side of the story, and secure their vote for the party of his choice. I believe, though, that when he was unable to reach someone, that he would simply cast a vote in their name. I also think that he would cast votes in his father's and sister's name, without actually bothering to tell them an election was going on. He admitted publicly that he used to cast his father's votes in the Senate, which shows a pattern of behavior, a modus operandi.
Q: Besides that admission, what other evidence supports your view here?
A: The fact that no one else could reach some of these pocket voters was telling. Another red flag was Ben's reaction to the rule changes. If he hadn't been casting fraudulent votes in the first place, why expend so much energy fighting against making fraudulent votes impossible?
Of course, what we are dealing with is a "preponderance of evidence", not "beyond a reasonable doubt." Part of the problem is that Ben was always Deputy Secretary of State, and the routine during each election was for Ben to simply announce "I got in touch with so-and-so, and he has cast his votes for the MN!” Or for the PC, back when Ben was in the PC. And that, too, was another ethical dilemma. When I first became PM, I believed that the pocket voters really did support the PC, but as time went on, I knew better.
Q: Not quite done with that issue, but have to choose which deeply pertinent question to ask first, so it's this one. He really peed his pants when M-P sacked him as Deputy SoS. What’d you think of that?
A: Well, first of all, I was pleased. But I expected him to fight hard against that. As Deputy SoS, he was in the perfect position to stuff the ballot box with fraudulent pocket votes, and as an election official, who could question him? After he was sacked, he had no way to directly influence the voting process. Since I was convinced he was engaged in casting fraudulent votes, I expected him to react strongly to being fired. He lived up to my expectations.
Q: As you stated, your PC did benefit from those pocket votes for some time with you at the helm. Can you recall when you began to question them privately, and why you didn’t make an issue of it?
A: About midway through my term, I basically knew that all of these long-lost PC supporters didn't have a clue as to what was going on in the Kingdom, that they were either voting the way Ben told them to, or not voting at all. As to why I didn't make an issue of it... that's a harder question.
I think that during my time in office, the PC party had a lot of support. My place in office was not dependent on pocket votes. Also, I did believe that every Talossan had the right to vote, no matter how ill-informed their votes were. So, as I saw it, only a small number of potentially fraudulent votes were involved each time. I guess I didn't want to rock the boat, or to have scandal taint my tenure.
Q: Okay. As I lack your firsthand experiences, I sense there may be something else you have to say about the whole degeneration of the Kingdom’s unity up to the point of the Republic’s planning stages—something I haven’t thought to ask. I want to give you a chance to unload. Please comment on any event that I haven’t covered, and tell whatever stories you feel deserve a good telling.
A: OK. As the time went on last spring, and the Ben-Grubi Feud escalated, many people were completely fed up. There was a kind of despair--that isn't necessarily the right word, but it's as close as I can get. Especially when Cooper and Art Verbotten renounced. At this point, I personally felt a mix of emotions. I was upset that good people were leaving, and I felt that I might have to eventually do the same. And I was angry.
I was angry because these people were my friends, and this thing we had going--Talossa--was something that we could no longer enjoy. I was angry because Talossa had been a large part of my life for years, and it was fast becoming an intolerable place to be. I didn't want to lose these friendships, to lose contact with my fellow citizens. And I was angry because I could trace all of these problems--every single one of them--to the feet of one person. Ben Madison.
That was when I made the critical change in my mind, to seriously consider secession. I had not been in favor of the idea before, but after this period of soul-searching, I saw it was the only solution. I suspect that others of us went through the exact same process. And that idea, that knowledge that we were about to secede, gave us all the strength to stick it out until the big day.
Q: Would it be fair to call you the leader of the alienated Talossans in the last days of union?
A: I don't think so. I was a leader, but not the leader. In fact, for awhile I was less active than many others. The way I came to the forefront was, I think, proposing the Compact.
Our joint PC-GCP mailing list had been busy for a couple of weeks debating what would happen--what kind of government structure we would set up, how we would organize things, etc. One evening while driving home from work it occurred to me that we were never going to get anywhere if we spent all our time debating.
That night, I wrote "The Compact". This was a statement of intent, a pledge that we were all going to join together in seceding from the Kingdom, and a pledge that we would work out all of the details later. I sent this around, and asked people to sign it. I think this made it real. By signing it, people were committing themselves to this course of action. We were also joining each other in committing high treason.
Q: And making the most of it, as the quote goes.
A: Again, this made it real--as Ben Franklin said, "We must assuredly all hang together, or else we shall all hang separately." That quote stuck out in my mind. Once the Compact was signed, we set the date and started organizing the actual secession. Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h wrote the provisional constitution and circulated it. And when the time came to select our first Dean, I was very surprised to be unanimously elected.
Q: Now we go to an area of pure historical preservation. The whole evening in which you authored the Compact is of paramount importance, and any detail is of value. Please search your memory and tell us everything: your mood as you wrote, whether you were interrupted, any major changes you made in the process, even whatever beverage you had while working. Nothing is too small.
A: Hmm... that's a tall order! Well, I was in a good mood - hopeful, and I felt "empowered" because I was doing something that could get this whole revolution started. I worked on it at home, and pretty much had it in one draft. I was thinking about the Declaration of Independence as I wrote it, although I didn't actually model the text on it.
A lot of the mood of the immediate pre-revolution period and early days of the Republic was actually influenced by a film, the musical film "1776". As it happens, both Gruber and myself love that film, and dialogue from the film influenced my idea of writing the Compact in the first place. As the planning days went on, Gruber and I used to trade movie quotations back and forth on the secessionist mailing list. (Laughs.)
Q: Was there any dissension in the ranks of the dissenters, so to speak?
A: Not really, nothing major. We committed to form a new nation together. We debated whether to call it Talossa or not, and we had good arguments both ways, but we voted, and the Republic of Talossa it was. I was one of those, in fact, who voted to use a different name, but I was outvoted, and I accepted the outcome cheerfully--in fact, I argued the rightness of naming ourselves Talossa later on with two Kingdomites who were tasked to try to "negotiate" with us after the secession.
Q: Trust me when I say that will shortly be a topic for much more detail. But for now: what sort of a consensus process did you employ while making plans for secession?
A: We voted. And everyone agreed in advance to accept the outcome of the votes.
Q: June 1, 2004 was our Lexington and Concord and our Yorktown rolled into one. Give us an insight into your state of mind as you prepared to post the Proclamation.
A: There was a palpable feeling of excitement. There was also a feeling of solemnity. We were about to cross the Rubicon, and there would be no turning back. We emailed each other that morning to finalize the details. Just before noon, I sent out what I thought would be the final pre-revolutionary email. It said "See you all on the other side." Turned out I was an hour early, because I forgot that the revolution was set for noon, Talossan Standard Time. But you get the picture.
Q: Was Ben’s being out of town a coincidence, or was there a specific reason why the Proclamation was timed as it was?
A: The date was planned independently of Ben's itinerary, I think--but we agreed that Ben being away would give us the breathing room we needed to get established. We thought that his inability to react immediately would be very helpful. In retrospect, I don't think it would have made a difference, really, because once we seceded, Ben was no longer an issue.
Q: As the first Dean of the Provisional Governing Council, in a way you’re also the Republic’s George Washington. What were your immediate priorities as Dean?
A: First of all, we needed to establish the way we would make our decisions. Secondly, we had to deal, immediately, with the subjects of the Kingdom. We wanted to encourage anyone else who wanted to leave to join us. I was contacted right away by Ronalt Rosais who, along with Marc Moisan, were tasked by Mark Hamilton and Quedeir Castiglia to try to "negotiate" with us.
We had to decide how to deal with people who were friendly to us, but who did not want to leave the Kingdom. We had to deal with attracting back some of the ex-Talossans who had left--we wanted to get the Liberals back, for example. And we also had to figure out how to deal with an issue no-one thought of beforehand--how we would deal with traditional "enemies of Talossa" who showed up to express interest in joining us.
Q: I resemble that remark. So tell us more about the negotiations: the approach, proposals, the tone, the result.
A: Let's see... Ronalt contacted me first, to ask why we left and what could be done to bring us back. He later got approval from the Kingdom's PM, Q, and the Regent, Mark Hamilton, to carry on negotiations. His tone was more or less "you guys have real grievances, what can we do to bring you back."
Marc Moisan was also "commissioned" to negotiate. His approach was perhaps the worst example of diplomacy I have ever seen. He basically said "If you come back now, we won't press charges." I still have the correspondence, and if there is any interest among the Talossan populace, I'll release it--it was all in the public domain, and my responses show the thinking that was behind the revolution.
Q: Why didn't Ronalt's approach get anywhere?
A: It was too little, too late. None of us were interested in rejoining any entity that had Ben Madison as a member. Also, Ronalt was trying to assure us that they could arrange it so that we would face no repercussions. That was a promise he could not keep, because Ben would have attacked us constantly had we returned.
Part of my response to Ronalt pointed out that Ben had systematically violated every promise he made at the "Noodle Summit", and that even if the Black Hand Government could get him to promise "amnesty", he would never deliver on it. I also pointed out that Ben would probably not be happy to find out that the whole "traitor's gang" left, only to be brought back in by his faithful followers. (Laughs.)
Q: So the plenipotentiary approach, if you will, ended up an impotentiary one. Ben was the dealbreaker.
A: Yes, Ben was the dealbreaker. One thing that we found in the first few days after the secession was a very intense feeling of liberation, of finally being freed from having to deal with Ben Madison and his petty hatreds. None of us were willing to go back into that situation.
Q: Thus, no offer that included a future with Ben in the same country was going to gain even minor support in your counsels?
A: Right. We did have a counter-offer, though, which was "if you are also fed up with Ben, than leave the Kingdom and join us." Our provisional constitution guaranteed instant citizenship to any Kingdomite who renounced his allegiance to the Kingdom and applied for citizenship with the Republic. With three exceptions.
Q: Which look to dwindle to two soon. Now let's talk about the Moisan approach. Would you characterize it as high-handed?
A: Yes. It was very arrogant and heavy-handed. Moisan blew his cover when, on the second email, he told me that he didn't believe for a minute that we really had a beef with Ben, but that we were simply mad that we lost the election. So not only did he make us an unattractive offer, he summarily rejected any notion that our stated reasons for leaving were worthy of consideration. It was like he deliberately baited his fly-trap with vinegar.
Q: How did you respond?
A: I told him that our stated reasons for leaving were our real reasons for leaving, told him he would never be able to keep the promise he also made of no repercussions, and pointed out that I knew Ben Madison much, much better than he did. Marc Moisan had been a citizen for less than a year, I think, whereas I had been not only a citizen, but a former Ben-ally and Prime Minister for almost seven years. I told him that he ought to take my perspective into account when making his decisions about who to believe.
Q: In other words, "don't try and hand me that bullshit." Was opinion unanimous among the Founding Parents in both cases?
A: Pretty much, yes. I sent copies of Ronalt and Marc's email to our mailing list, as well as my responses, and got back only positive feedback.
Q: I believe that the nation would be very interested in an annotated publication of this correspondence. Any chance you might do so someday?
A: Certainly. If there is interest, I will publish these emails. Ronalt and Marc both operated under the assumption that our emails were open and public.
Q: So other than shipping the National Archives back to him, you haven't had contact with Ben since?
A: No direct contact whatsoever. The only kind of indirect contact came after the last Dean election when Ben wrote on the Kingdom message board that Maxime reported there was a rift between Gruber-supporters and Pope-supporters. To refute that false charge, Gruber and I published a joint statement on Wittenberg to affirm that both of us are committed to the Republic.
Q: While we’re on the subject of luring-back, the Republic lured me back, on its own merit without conscious effort, from my own distant corner of the Talossan (or never-quite-Talossan) Diaspora. While Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h was my first contact, you went out of your way to welcome my prospective citizenship. When you first heard I was interested, what went through your mind?
A: I was very excited that so many ex-Talossans and not-quite-Talossans were interested in coming to our shores. In your case, I recalled that you had been the subject of unfair attacks by Ben, so I was quite prepared to believe that you were a good guy, without any other evidence. (Laughs.)
Q: Heh, all my sacrificed cows and goats did some good!
A: (Laughs.) But seriously, I have generally discovered that if Ben disliked someone, that person must have a lot of redeeming features!
(Interviewer’s note: at this point I see that I repeated a couple of earlier questions. This was either due to having to spread the interview over several sessions due to time constraints, or my own incompetence, however the reader elects to see it. In any event, the answers are not only factually consistent but entertaining and shed new light on both questions. I have chosen not to disrupt the actual flow by fixing my goof and merging the text, which would delay publication because I couldn’t merge my interviewee’s words without giving him a chance to approve or disapprove. Thus, let my disorganization enter the Official Record as proven fact.)
Q: In the Kingdom’s ‘official histories’ you’ve gone from Illustrious Leader to Fallen Angel. Do you have any reaction to the change in the way you’re characterized?
A: I think that the change in the official history ought to be telling to anyone in the Kingdom--the fact that history is rewritten by Ben is a chilling point. On the other hand, I have not been as tarnished as Chris Gruber, Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h or M-P. I have, as you said, been demoted from Illustrious Leader to Fallen Angel, but not all the way down to Prince of Darkness. In a way, I am annoyed. After all, my name was on the original statement of why we seceded, I was the first Dean of the Republic. What am I, chopped liver? What does a guy have to do to become a Public Enemy these days?
Q: I was wondering that myself. (Laughs.) But it's a good question. Why do you suppose he's been relatively gentle with you while fitting out your compatriots with horns and forked tails?
A: I wonder if he thinks that one day I will come back, admit my errors, and ask to be readmitted to the Kingdom. I certainly have gone out of my way to quell any thoughts he may have had in that regard. Obviously, when I had physical possession of the Archives, he was not going to antagonize me. But he's had them back for months now.
Q: You’ve expressed plans to run for President; if you’re elected, your every action will set a precedent. Tell us what sort of pattern a Pope Presidency would seek to establish for the office.
A: I would seek to make the Presidency a position that is accountable to the laws of the land. I would use the position to support and defend the Republic, but to do so in a manner that is consistent with our Constitution and our laws.
I believe that in the past, I have governed by recruiting and organizing the best talents of the nationette into tackling the major issues. I don't think I have attempted to resolve all controversies and issues myself, but rather to arbitrate solutions between different factions, and to bring forward and highlight the best ideas that are floated. A Pope Presidency would attempt to operate in this manner.
Q: This is the point where any Greek God Guy worth his salt consults the Oracle. While I cut up the goats and get the fire going, I’d like to know what you see in our future. Look two years ahead, if you would, and describe the Republic you feel we will grow into: size, style, institutions.
A: I think we have a lot of growth in our future. I see us attracting more of the old Talossan Diaspora, but also newcomers to the hobby of micronationalism. I also see us on good terms with other micronations that are still operating. I think we will carry on a style of pragmatism--finding practical solutions to pressing problems. We will continue to embrace a healthy skepticism towards arbitrary authority, mindful of what we lived under in the Kingdom.
We will continue to have vibrant, boisterous politics, although I think the tone will be much, much friendlier than we experienced in the Kingdom. Interest in the language will continue, and may well draw new citizens. The language, however, will continue to be a point of contention between the Kingdom and the Republic, one that will require a thoughtful resolution.
Q: Would it be fair to characterize you as not-very-guardedly optimistic?
A: One year ago, the founding fathers of the Republic were an embattled group of dissidents in an increasingly tyrannical Kingdom. We were dispirited and many of us were ready to renounce our citizenships. We kept each other's spirits up through a secret email list.
Today, we look back at what we accomplished by seceding. We have the Republic, which is an incredibly vibrant and creative community. We don't have the kinds of fights and feuds we endured under Ben. It's kind of hard not to be optimistic, given what we've achieved. What we've all achieved, Founding Fathers, ex-Talossans and Not-Quite-Talossans alike.
Q: Indeed. Do you foresee a resolution to the language issue, perhaps even have one to propose?
A: That's tricky. I don't have a plan to propose at the moment. I am hopeful that we will find a resolution, but realistic about the fact that Ben Madison is very jealous about the language.
Q: We're near the end, but I'd like to ask about the secret e-mail list you mentioned. When did that start, and how did it expand? At some point, someone has to take the plunge and say to someone else 'this sucks,' right?
A: I think it started as an outgrowth of the PC mailing list--with the Grey Congress Party added to it. But I wasn't really involved in the creation of it, so I can't give a definitive answer.
Q: How'd you get included?
A: I was on the PC list, and as Opposition Leader, I was certainly involved in "The Resistance". I think I was on the progenitor of the mailing list. But, as you said, there was a point when people started talking about the idea of secession and of forming the Republic.
Q: Do you think the Kingdom’s spasms of discontent will prove a recurring pattern, spawning periodic flights of disillusioned Talossans followed by ‘kinder, gentler’ Ben days, ad infinitum? Or ad madisonium?
A: I think it has been a consistent pattern in the Kingdom to have periodic waves of renunciations. In the past, these people would melt away, perhaps keeping in touch with one another. Now, they have an alternative--so I think it is important that the Republic maintain a visibility among the Kingdomites, so that the next wave of renunciators know that they have a place to go to.
Q: You already know that you have the Republic’s full attention, but you are surely aware that you have that of many in the Kingdom as well. Some are widely liked and respected in the Republic. What, if anything, would you like to say to those who remain behind?
A: I'd like to let them know that the Republic has real ties of shared heritage and affection with the citizens of the Kingdom. And I would like them to know that when the going gets rocky again, as it will, and when they find themselves facing the wrath of Madison, as they may, that the Republic is here--where one can continue to be a Talossan without having to live under tyranny.
If I boiled it down to a slogan, perhaps it would be "The Republic of Talossa--We're Here For You."
Q: Now, if you’d address yourself to those who have never been Talossans. Many may be wondering: if I join a Talossa, which should it be? Here’s your opportunity to say a few words to them.
A: I would encourage them to exercise their critical faculties in evaluating the claims made. Read our website and the statement we made about why we left--and try to get honest answers about these issues from both Republicans and Kingdomites. I think it would quickly become apparent which Talossa encourages these kinds of questions and which Talossa tries to stifle them.
Q: Anything else you’d like to voice?
A: I think that we have all undertaken a great ambition--to pursue our visions of nation-building in a free environment, unencumbered by a "National Guru" or a jealous, possessive creator. I am proud of what we have accomplished, and I have to say that the Republic has already succeeded beyond anything I anticipated when we launched it.
Q: Couldn't agree more. Michael Pope, thank you for all your time, energy and candour.
A: And thank you for the work you are putting into this important project.
1 <small>A perineometer is kind of like a miniature dildo that measures the strength of the pelvic floor muscles and enables the user to build them up. If you ever happen to be hanging out near a woman’s pelvic floor and she has an ultra-ripped pelvic floor six-pack, you know she’s been hitting the perineometer and you should perhaps pay the appropriate tasteful compliment. In all other situations, the interviewee’s advice is surely sage.
This author has no word on when the Bowflex people will begin marketing a perineometer attachment, but it can’t be long before we see them in infomercials—something to think about when you’re about to switch over to Nick@Nite to watch old "Roseanne" reruns.</small>
2 <small>That is, of course, except for a particular New Zealander! Ahem!</small>