Chris Gruber, 21 March 2005
Interviewer: J.K. Kelley
Eventually, I honestly feel the Republic will be bigger than the Kingdom has ever been, given we’re genuinely interested in fostering a community. This isn’t simply self-aggrandising rhetoric; this is based on historical models. Or something.
Q: Let’s flesh you out a bit with the obligatory bio paragraph: age, where were you raised, education level, marital status, basic professional experience.
A: Well, I just turned thirty-one this past March 12. I was born in New Jersey, but raised all over the country, but primarily New Jersey. I am in the process of finishing my associate of arts degree. I hope to work towards a PhD in public administration or political science, or obtain a law degree. I have some lofty ambitions. I am divorced, but engaged once again (this makes engagement number five, I believe). I am a technology support specialist and web designer by trade, running my own tiny business, Radiopedia Creative Industries. I got my start designing web sites in February 1997 when I was creating my first site for my own micronation.
Q: Five engagements. That makes you an engagement ace. Have you got the requisite five flags painted under the driver's side window of a vehicle?
A: No, (Laughs.) but that certainly is a good idea: Call me the Wed Baron.
Q: I have no room to talk. But speaking of your micronation, you had that as a boy, correct?
A: Yes, I did. My brothers and I would be allowed to sleep out in the family den during the summer of 1986. One night, during our discussions in the dark, I suggested starting our own country, using the house as a territory, first thing in the morning. And we did. I found a great name in the World Book encyclopedia in the Latin article. It had a bit about interesting English words which originated from disassociated Latin words. Being the 12-year-old liberal I was, I came up "pacare," which means "to make peace." Apparently, it was the source of the English word "pay."
Q: And thus Pacaria: With the benefit of age and reflection, what gap in your young world did this micronation fill?
A: Self-indulgence, just like any other micronation. (Laughs.) It also fostered my initial childhood interest in politics. And served as a vehicle for all sorts of other interests as well, from astronomy to sports.
Q: So it would be fair to say you were a very widely read young man with a rather precocious interest in politics?
A: To say the least, sir. I'm a nerd, and I seem to have always been.
Q: Try and think back, if you can, to your first impressions of Talossa: What was going through your mind?
A: Pacaria, actually. I found Talossa online after seeing the term "micronation" for the first time in January 1997. For some reason, I flashed on the idea of Pacaria: For years, I had been trying hard to reconcile my bizarre little hobby with adulthood. Then, in a whirl of ones and zeroes, it seems I had come across other adults, doing the same thing, but with more adults! I wasn't alone. And that's a beautiful feeling.
Q: Where did you come in the cybercit immigration wave?
A: Just after the first wave, I believe. The first wave included the Republic's own Gjermund Higraff. The second wave, in my opinion, started around the time the Clockwork Orange Party started up and Tomás Gariçéir joined the Kingdom. By the end of the second wave, Penguinea had begun. I joined the Talossan conversation around Independence Day 1997.
Q: What was your first snap judgment of Ben Madison?
A: "Damn, what a clever guy." I held him in instant admiration for having done what I failed to do: starting a goofy country and perpetuating it with friends. I never managed to get more than a single friend to join Pacaria: Ninety-five percent of Pacaria was on paper, anyway.
Q: Didn’t you become Seneschál in fairly short order?
A: Pretty much. But it wasn't as simple as it may have looked at first.
Q: How'd it come about?
A: It was based on the fact that Dan Wardlow had his conflicts with Ben Madison. By early March 1998, after I had become a citizen, Dan left the PC. This was March 6, I believe. And then the PC leadership turned to me and asked me if I was interested in running for Prime Minister. I recall declaring on Wittenberg the famous William Sherman campaign promise.
Q: You promised to torch Atlanta?
A: No. (Laughs.) "If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve." I was swayed shortly thereafter, though. However, when Charles Sauls proved to be a non-entity as de facto PM, Ben finagled the rules of succession and swore me in late on March 29, 1998. I was so very surprised and honored.
Q: So two months after joining, you were Seneschál. How would you describe your administration?
A: I dove into the job with enthusiasm. And even though nice people who were in the PC leadership offered tonnes of advice, I was not about to be told what to do. Which is funny, since, until today, I've never told anyone about a single fact that was never resolved. It would have been a scandal back then if it had come out, I bet.
Q: This should be interesting. Elaborate?
A: It's not really that interesting, but still... I never fulfilled the book purchase requirement for citizenship. Not until I acquired three books during TalossaFest 2003, that is.
Q: So technically you were a Cestour in office?
A: No, no. If the Cosâ said you were a citizen, you were a citizen. It's just that the two people who were in charge of selling the books to prospectives never sold any to me. I didn't even pay for my copy of Ár Päts that Ben sent me prior to my formal application!
Q: I see. What do you think of this in retrospect--your swift rise to PMship. Was that good for the Kingdom, in your view?
A: I suppose so. It offered me the opportunity to see the process up close and give my own unique point of view when directing the government. The government (read: Ben) wanted to be particularly xenophobic in its foreign affairs with micronations. And I was particularly open in my view regarding micros. So I enforced a policy of open relations with reasonable micros, even getting two micros formally recognised by the Cosâ, until the weirdoes came out of the woodwork.
As the head of the government, I was harassed by various bathtub emperors for weeks until I implemented what I referred to at the time as the Great Wall of Talossa policy. I singlehandedly and unequivocally shut down communication with all micros from that point forward.
Q: Why was Ben so xenophobic toward them?
A: Same reason I became so. He was right about that, to a point.
Q: Can you recall an entertainingly abzurd example of one of these 'bathtub emperors?'
A: I wish I could. I have done my best to forget them. I can remember one emperor who we never had any contact with. Nikhedonia: The young man named houseplants to his cabinet.
Q: Shades of Caligula.
A: You're not the first to make that comparison.
Q: (Laughs.) I should hope not. Is it fair to say you were one of the Kingdom’s longtime political heavyweights?
A: Yes. And it was remarkable that I became one so fast, but more remarkable that I remained so. Newcomers have often been leaders, but few stuck around as strongly or as long. Also, until I came along, it had been a while since Talossa had managed to have a single year without changing PMs. I'd like to think I helped bring some sort of stability, a stability that was continued by two of my successors and good friends Michael Pope and Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h.
Q: Ben once described you as a real-life socialist, but a Talossan conservative. What is a Talossan conservative? A Talossan liberal?
A: A Talossan conservative is someone who's conservative on Talossa-specific issues, obviously. I had always been an advocate for conserving the more traditional aspects of the Kingdom, including the language, Berber history, and for restoration of the 200-seat Cosâ. It was a matter of preservation vs. change rather than right vs. left.
Q: So the party label 'Progressive Conservative' had an oxymoronic element to it?
A: Sort of, but not really. Ben put it best when he said something like a conservative is someone who is loyal to their nation and a progressive is someone who's loyal to their nation's people. I rather liked that, and it was a big reason for me being proud to be a member of the PC for so damn long.
Q: You were also one of the Kingdom’s strong creative forces, perhaps its strongest. The Kingdom has lost that force. How do you think that has impacted it?
A: Without a doubt, we devastated the Kingdom beyond repair.
Q: I was speaking specifically about you and your creative input: Ascuns, for example. I see no evidence that anyone in the Kingdom has yet filled those clodhoppers. Do you think the loss of creative force was the most devastating long-term aspect of secession?
A: It's one of the pillars, without question. Creatively and in respect to energy. There's no way they will ever be able to rebuild the Kingdom to its former glory. Ever. The people who left the Kingdom were not assorted cogs; we were all invaluable contributors in our own way. It's insane to think we could be "replaced" at all. Ben will never be able to find decent successors for those the Regipäts lost. Mark my words.
Q: Duly marked. If I understand right, at one point, Ben practically canonized you for providing some piece of evidence that affected his case against the TLP. How do you see that in retrospect—was the evidence that damning?
A: To a point. It was against the TLP only in that it proved that accusations against Dan Wardlow working with the Penguineans were true, accusations the TLP (among others) dismissed as Ben-inspired folderol. I personally see it as a vindication of my position, a position I still feel justified in holding, as I explained to my party-mate Miestrâ Schivâ, who was the person on the other end of those notorious e-mails.
Dan had chosen to run from the fight and gave very little to no reason for his secrecy in his reasoning. He went from having widespread support for his initiatives and policies to tearing his newly-formed party to shreds simply by running from the fight. With him in the PC or Peace and Freedom Party (PFPT), Dan could have taken the election easily, thereby assuring that Ben would have been one lone voice against the potential peace with Penguinea:
But Dan, for whatever reason, saw some other picture. He burned his bridges and assured the landslide I eventually oversaw in the March-April 1998 election.
Q: So did the TLP lie, or were they simply betting on a weak horse by dismissing the allegations?
A: To be honest, they were betting on the idea that Ben was full of it. As he usually is. I don't fault them for their position, but I did have a problem with certain folks for defending Dan for so long even in the face of evidence. It was "look; see? Dan was working with them." And of course they refused to acknowledge the truth, it seemed.
Q: Was that really the genesis of Ben's long vendetta against the TLP?
A: Not really. Ben always, with very little variation, held competing parties in some sort of contempt. Even if he was otherwise friends with their leadership. That would explain his magical, sudden hatred of me after I co-founded the Grey Congress Party (GCP).
Q: I love it when an answer feeds directly into my next question. You were, so to speak, bound up with Ben in Kingdom politics for years before starting the GCP with Tomas Gariceir. To what extent was that PC an extension of Ben’s will?
A: The PC was, by the time the party started splitting into pieces, less of an extension of his will than it had been in years past. I don't know if I can accurately call it an extension of his will by the time I left the office of Seneschál in May 1999. He would try to get PC support, but the big flaw with the PC juggernaut was its complete lack of cohesion, something I despised. There was almost no real party platform beyond sloganeering and supporting Ben-friendly ideas.
That's why one of the first things I instituted in the GCP was the idea of party unity. So maybe a distinct difference could prevail. For so long, much of the appeal with of the PC lay not within policy but the idea of being granted power, of being attached to a brand associated with success. We were the New York Yankees, circa 1925-1962. For us to lose was an odd prospect indeed. But we essentially bought all the biggest talent in the league.
Q: Seen from the outside, the PC looked very cohesive. So it was not internally so cohesive?
A: Not in the least. It wasn't riddled with internal bickering or anything; it's just that there was no single direction planned. Our platforms, when we offered any, were de facto outgrowths of the traditional DAMP idea.
Q: DAMP?
A: As a techie, I now think of that as a Darwin/Apache/MySQL/PHP solution, but for years it stood for Democracy, Activity, Monarchy, and Patriotism. Democracy and activity were the "progressive" planks; monarchy and patriotism were the conservative planks. It was a big deal when the PC's last platform came out with the M unrepresented, instead replaced with a statement condemning the current monarchy. It was at that moment I knew that the PC was honestly showing solidarity with me in my conflict with Ben during the May-June 2004 election.
But it wasn't solidarity with me at that point, as much as it was a solidification of revolutionary forces, since by the time the election started, the Revolution was being planned for more than a month.
Q: So for awhile you weren't sure where the PC was going to stand on the conflict?
A: Well, I wouldn't put it that way at all. By that time, the PC and GCP had a joint mailing list and were planning strategies together.
Q: So after the PC fragmented into three parts, how long did it take for your GCP and the rump PC to see that you had common political interests?
A: I see we've skipped over a huge chunk of my Talossan history. (Laughs.) The PC and GCP became pals immediately after the Hallowe'en Event. It was a mutual Ben-Victim Club, so to speak.
Q: We'll step back to it. Tell us about the genesis of the Grey Congress Party.
A: It came out of a haircut, of all things.
Q: I could have joined. After my haircuts even then there was a lot of grey hair on the floor.
A: Well, it's not as simple as that. I don't have grey hair and it was my haircut that started it all.
Q: How so?
A: I finally got a haircut I'd been trying to get various barbers and stylists to do for years. The style is crew-cut short on the back and sides, with a patch of combable hair on top, but blended in nicely so as to look decent. It's a 1930s-style haircut and it's my favorite style for myself. In fact, I still have that same haircut to this day. It's just that on that fateful November 2002 day, I finally got the damn thing the way I wanted it.
Q: So how does this new 'do of yours lead to a new political party that ultimately shakes the world of Talossa?
A: I took several pictures of myself with this nifty 'cut. And then, in a moment of artistic inspiration, I thought of Photoshopping my head onto the bodies of historical figures who had similar haircuts. That came from a remark I made when I posted to my blog about the haircut: "I had no idea it looked so Hitleresque." So, I used Macromedia Fireworks to paste my head onto fascist-style photos. I liked the finished product, since it was pretty cool to see me looking all pompous and stuff, so I emailed them to Tomás Gariçéir. At the time, Tomás and I were talking on the phone on a regular basis since I was teaching him the finer points of web designing with CSS. He encouraged me to post them to Wittenberg. Which I did.
Q: But that's still more than a step away from the start of a new party, especially considering that you would be leaving the PC--and thus, to your knowledge, leaving the Madisonian embrace. What else happened?
A: The reaction was incredible. Nearly everyone on Witt praised the images and I felt like a badass professional graphic designer. Ben expressed special interest, saying he was envious. But, a growing dissatisfaction with the PC, coupled with my growing friendship with Mr Gariçéir pointed me towards leaving the PC, an idea I had only toyed with in my head prior to that point. But it was the cool images that finally put the idea into action. Tomás and I agreed to start our own party.
Q: Did you have any idea that the Black Hand (MN) was also preparing to split?
A: Not a clue. Apparently they were planning an ideological, political split for some weeks before they announced. At least, that's the story Ben gave us the day they announced their formation. Which was one or two days after the GCP formally announced.
Q: Indeed. The phrase 'stolen thunder' comes to mind.
A: Yep, and completely unintentional on our parts.
Q: Seriously?
A: Yep.
Q: Fair enough. Did you have any run-ins with Ben before BrewerGameGate?
A: Yes. Once we split from the PC, then, in his eyes, it was game on. He jumped on us for planning the party in secret while remaining on the PC mailing list, saying it was disingenuous and sneaky.
Q: So do you think you'd already made his little enemies list by the time you and Lisa traveled to TalossaFest?
A: In a way. I think we were on table two. Ben has three stages for enemies. Table one is where you go when you're merely disagreeing with him on a single issue. You're a Competitor. Table two means he regards you as a threat, but not a serious threat. He's still willing to be friendly on some level, as he was with us, since we were calling him from the road during our drive up there. Table two folks are Rivals. Table three is where one goes when they've become a mortal Enemy.
Even after the initial run-ins with him in December 2002 over the GCP formation and the subsequent scandal commonly referred to as Advertgate, I remained a Rival. Ben will willingly invite Rivals over to his house for dinner, which he did with me and Lisa that first night we were in Milwaukee.
Q: You said 'we.' That implies that Ben didn't consider Lisa her own Talossan person, merely an extension of you. Is that fair to say, or had she had her own personal run-ins with him before that TalossaFest?
A: No, that's accurate. Despite his accusations of me being a misogynist, Ben is endowed with a healthy dose of misogyny, at least when it comes to male citizens' female significant others. Maybe it's not misogyny in a complete sense. Maybe it's simply just that he disregarded all significant others as non-entities, since so few had ever contributed anything to Talossa: But, no, they never had a single run-in.
Q: Remember when he was heaping scorn on his former wife, 'Queen Jenny?' Did you see any misogyny in that expression of Ben's anger?
A: Not completely. I saw it as an angry man lashing out at his failed marriage. I cannot completely blame him for feeling that way, despite the fact that he did go about it in the wrong manner. Ben got taken in by a green-card seeker and couldn't believe that the Almighty Genius of Madison could be duped. But, there it was, plain as day. Ben handles his failures worse than just about anyone I've ever met.
Q: So the short version of the Jenny story is that he had a ticket to the land of Disney and Wal-Mart in his pants?
A: If by "in his pants," you mean "in his wallet." I have doubts Ben got laid before he turned 37.
Q: I'll get you for painting that imagery into my mind. But on the subject of BrewerGameGate, to hear Ben tell it, you basically came in and started waving your dick around. I think you have a different version.
A: Heh, indeed. For one, my dick was safely snug in its home. (Laughs.) Okay, I apologise for that. It's like this: I have a weird system for testing people's limits, since I want to know if someone has a weakness or is, in my eyes, "worthy" enough to be my friend. My sense of humour is my method. It's abrasive and can be considered downright rude to most objective observers. But I usually mean no harm, even to those whom I offend. I simply want to see if the person in question will toss the ball back to me or cringe. Social role-playing is a peeve of mine, so I use my joking moment as the opportunity to find out if the subject is willing to break out of the so-called "proper" role.
In this case, we were promised by Ben that we would be viewing Talossan videos when we arrived back at his and Amy's house. When I saw that Amy was raptly watching the Brewers game, I pushed it a little. I mean, hey, we were promised. Ben never said anything about giving Amy the TV when he had several out-of-state guests waiting to watch the videos. Part of my feeling is that when you're intent on watching a game of that--ahem--calibre, you should be willing to move your arse out of the way and allow your guests to view what they were promised. Let's be honest, the 2003 Brewers were just arse on the field, and it was the middle of July. Expecting that Amy would watch the game in a different room is not an unreasonable thing to think.
And, once I pushed Ben a little on the subject, saying playfully "Hey, you promised us videos," he kept telling me "Amy's watching the game; we'll just have to wait." Part of me was pissed that she was being so damned selfish and rude to all of these guests, some of whom drove for twenty-two hours straight, part of me was pissed that a husband couldn't say boo to his wife, and part of me was in playful enough a mood to test the limits.
Q: Let me interject here, if I may. Could part of it have also been that you had been in a car for twenty-two hours and were tired, sore, cooped up, and all the other side effects? After I've driven distances not quite so long, I've been at less than my best.
A: Not completely. This was the day after we arrived.
Q: Ah. That helps. Please continue.
A: Anyway... I spoke up so Amy could hear me: "So how about those videos?" and Ben exlained once more that Amy was watching the Brewers game. I shot back, smartarsedly, "Why bother? It's the Brewers; it's not like it's a real team!" She gave me the Infamous Glare of Doom, to which I am immune (thanks, Mom!). Both Lisa and I laughed at my remark, since, c'mon, it's funny.
Q: You profaned the sacred.
A: And besides, as an athlete yourself, you'd understand, some competitive ribbing is to be expected amongst sports fans. I fully expected her to make a remark about my favourite team, the Yankees. The fact that it would later become a point of contention blew my mind.
Q: So that's it, the incident. And at that time you had no idea that you'd won the Queen Amy Hate sweepstakes?
A: Well... to be honest, I knew I had raised her ire, but I didn't really give a tinker's damn. I had heard stories about her trying to dominate conversations, gearing the attention towards herself time and time again, even during Talossa-related gatherings. To say the least, she's a blabbermouth. "Art Verbotten" was right when he told me that; she cannot shut up to save her life. So, she excluded herself from the rest of the proceedings from that moment forward. When I was informed that the reason she didn't come along was because she didn't care for me, I believe I said something like "Oh well; it's not like I care." More than a few of us had a good laugh at that. But I had no idea that Ben had any issue with me.
Q: By your own admission, your conduct there was abrasive--even though it could be taken either way. Would you likely have been that way with any wife Ben might have had, even one with a genial, warm reputation, or were you in a sense sending Amy a message?
A: Neither, really. I pretty much play things by ear in social situations. Despite my whole "friend test," I don't put everyone through that. The night before, at dinner with the Madison-Durnford contingent, I got a strong impression of Amy as the Social-Sitch Dominatrix. I guess you could say I was letting her know I wouldn't do like the other guests did: sit silently while she pushed us aside. Some of the group were quiet by nature, some were just being polite, but either way, I hate when someone tries to do to my friends what she did.
Q: Okay. So there was an element of a message: you weren't going to let her domme you.
A: Sure. Yes. Indeed. I hate that attitude of "owning" a situation. She was only peripherally Talossan, if you think about it. And then she felt she had the right to tell us to wait our turn at the table, when Andy Lowry had flown from Arizona, Tomás Gariçéir had flown from Massachusetts, Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h had flown from Houston, and Lisa and I had driven from Florida just to visit Ben and our other Talossan friends. She treats people like property. I don't respond well to such behaviour.
Q: I can see why. What did she mean by having to wait your turn at the table? I mean, in my home no one, and I mean no one, is seated at our table until Deb is seated and ready to eat. I'm not rude to them, but they will do as I say, no matter who. Was it such a situation?
A: I didn't mean she said it literally, but figuratively. It was not unlike your situation, but the problem is, Ben never gave anyone any house rules or warning about the Social-Sitch Dominatrix. As far as hospitality goes, I follow this rule: you're my guest, so it's my responsibility to apprise you of any boundaries I'd like you to adhere to.
Q: That's how I feel. If you don't seem to follow my lead, I'll let you know in a way that enables you not to lose face. So she was bossier about it?
A: To say the least. She simply expected us to know that it was her turf and that she will step on anyone who steps in her way. My house is my castle, too, and I will allow no one to violate it. But I will be damned if I don't treat my guests with warmth and friendliness. My home is there for them to enjoy, too. Maybe it's some cold, emotionless Midwest thing I don't know about. Either way, it was pretty damned arrogant of her and pretty damned weak-willed of Ben to not bridge the gap in some way.
Q: I think what you're driving at here is that it wasn't a hospitable environment in the sense of friendly acceptance and guidance as to expectations. Would you describe her home as an etiquette minefield?
A: Oh, you bet. Forgivetz-moi for not being Little Miss Prissy Pants with white gloves and a bonnet.
Q: This interview is creating a series of harrowing images. I will begin drinking now.
A: If you must, sir. If you must. (Laughs.)
Q: I must. So on the way home from T-Fest, tell us what impressions you and Lisa shared, if you will.
A: We were incredibly excited. We really did not want to leave. The goodbyes took a lot longer than they should have, since I hated saying goodbye to everyone. I recall taking a picture of the back window of my car, with Milwaukee receding in the distance, and saying to Lisa, "I miss it already." She said, "I know."
Q: So this despite the Madame l'Etiquette social minefield. What enabled the trip to overcome that negative side in such an overwhelming way for both of you?
A: We got a huge charge of sitting with these people, talking with them, shaking hands, hugging, arguing, and just plain being Talossan in their presence. Going to TalossaFest was a defining moment for us, no doubt. I loved nearly every single minute of it. That's why this little tiff with Amy was so weird. It was a trifle, something to be easily forgotten. And somehow it became something big in her mind. Go figure.
Q: But later on, Ben made a lot of accusations about you that made 'Amy didn't like him' seem pitifully small by comparison. Which one offended you the most?
A: Being accused of being a woman-beater. For that, above all else, I doubt I could ever forgive him.
Q: Have you ever seriously contemplated suing him for libel?
A: Yes. Yes, I have. Although, I need to prove that he has actually damaged my reputation, which is very, very hard to prove.
Q: Obviously you've at least asked a legally knowledgeable person a couple of questions.
A: I've done the research myself. I am, after all, contemplating a possible career in law. And that is one of the ways I took Ben on under his rules and beat him.
Q: After your falling out with him, Ben changed his ‘history’ to paint you as first worthless, then awful. Had you ever seen him do this to anyone before?
A: Not to such a significant degree. I'd seen how he painted the Androids, but, according to all available evidence, the Androids really did behave as described. And, I've seen him dramatically vilify a few others. But I was never given any reason to doubt his word outright; I'd simply adjust the exaggeration to realistic parameters. But what he did with my story is outright Stalinesque.
Q: But you had smelt the feces of the ox wafting from his prose before, at least to a degree.
A: (Laughs.) That's one way of putting it, I suppose.
Q: He once said that if you came back to TalossaFest, there might be a fight. Let’s imagine you had, and Ben actually carried out this threat of violence. How do you think you’d have reacted?
A: Yeah, he essentially issued a veiled physical threat to me. But I can tell you that, having seen me next to him, you would put your money on me. When I told Lisa of the threat, she doubted it was real. Once she saw it for herself, she said, "Is he NUTS? He's threatening YOU?" I mean, look, I'm overweight, to be sure, but a lot of my weight gain over the last few years is just as easily attributed to muscle mass. I have thick arms, as you can see in some of my pictures. I'm pretty strong. So, it's weird to imagine Ben trying to start a fist fight because I "set foot in Milwaukee." Reminds me of something my mother once threatened.
Q: But what would you have done?
A: In the case of an actual physical confrontation?
Q: Yes. That's the meat of the question. Let's say he escalated the confrontation into a physical one, say by shoving you. What happens next?
A: I'd do what I usually do: parry or dodge any immediate threats. I hate fighting. But if he kept it up, even swinging directly at me, I would try to end the fight. I have only twice gotten into a fight with someone since being an adult, and in each, my immediate reaction is to defend myself. My secondary mission is to subdue them and end the fight. In the second fight I had, I was successful in stunning the person with blows to the back of the head and then pinning them to the ground so they couldn't do any more damage. I have enough physical strength to seriously hurt someone, but I respect that strength enough and understand my temper enough to not go there. I only want to end the fight. And that's how such a confrontation would likely go if Ben were to start something.
Q: Rather at odds with the violent way he's tried to portray you. I've painted a picture in which he's assaulted you, and you've got fairly broad legal sanction to kick the shit out of him. Yet you don't want to.
A: No, I don't. I have little taste for outright fights, since I was so heavily abused growing up. I was beaten soundly nearly every third day of my life until I was almost 20. Why would I want to engage in physical confrontation? Ben's assessment of me is a myth he created, which is how he tries to discredit those who have a genuine beef with him.
Q: Did he ever serve you with a restraining order?
A: Not that I know of. I believe in order for him to obtain such a thing, he would have to show a reasonable fear of being attacked. But, different states have different laws. That's something he didn't know about my past.
Q: You were once roundly condemned for suggesting that Ben do as his mother once did: up and die. Ben tried to twist that into a death threat. How do you imagine you'd feel if you got the news that he'd suddenly died, say in his sleep?
A: I'd probably feel nothing. I don't hate him, but I don't have that all-too-"Christian" pity for him, either. When I made the remark I made, I did it to get a reaction out of him, to make him feel as hurt as he was making me feel. And, until some people who aren't Ben spoke up, even Ben didn't react to it. He may claim to take offence to this very day, but it's purely for show. He pretty much ignored the remark at the time. Seems to me, if one is offended, they don't take two days to express that offence.
Q: Ben steamrolled a lot of people. You were the one he couldn’t steamroll. I’d like your opinion: how do you think that realization struck him?
A: I think it scared him. I'm the one thing Ben couldn't handle: I'm his better in nearly every way, if you'd allow me a moment to indulge my ego.
Q: I'll indulge it further; I'll pick your brain and get all the analysis of his psyche you'll give me. I suspect that life has made you a pretty good judge of character. Use that skill now on Ben Madison, if you would. To what extent does he believe his own propaganda?
A: As much as Hitler believed his, to be quite honest. I've recently read a book on the pathology of Adolf Hitler, which figures out the cause of his biggest psychological problems. And Ben shares a lot of things in common with him. Yeah, yeah, I know: Godwin's law and all that. But that only applies if you have no actual evidence.
Q: Godwin's Law is for arguments, not interviews, so it does not apply here. But Ben does seem to have a lot of influence over people, at least up to a point. Why do you think that is?
A: Same reason Hitler did. It's the classic definition of charisma. According to this book, "Hitler's influence over people came from his inadequacy. His desperate sense of ineffectiveness made him try to dominate everyone." The author goes on to quote Goethe: "He who knows not how to rule his inner self would gladly rule his fellow men according to his own arrogant conceit."
To put it even more simply, Ben seems to offer something to people. For you, he seemed a kindred wacky spirit. For Tomás Gariçéir, he was a kindred linguistic spirit. For me, Ben was a fellow politics/history/language/constructed world buff. His charisma allows each of us, at least initially, to see what we want in him. And, to some extent, we are right about that. He's managed to be all things to all people on some level. But his own weaknesses eventually cause even his admirers to fall out of favour.
The book on Hitler, called Hitler: The Pathology of Evil by George Victor, is utterly fascinating in and of itself due to the fact that some of the greatest atrocities were carried out as a result of one man's psychological issues, but it is equally fascinating for the student of Talossan history. One passage that struck me was the one that started "Among those mesmerized [by Hitler] were Germany's most educated." Put that bit in the context of Ben and Talossa and you start to see how someone like Ben can win people over so well.
Q: Do you think this is just an innate talent of his, or do you think it's specific to Talossa and his unique position as its founder?
A: It's an innate talent of his. Although I wouldn't necessarily use the word "talent," as it primarily has a positive connotation. If Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h or Mark Hamilton had founded a Talossa, they would not have done what Ben had done. Neither would I. He thrust his at-home hobby onto his friends and then got them to essentially obey his whims. That's unreal. I don't know anyone else in Talossan history who could have done the same thing to the same level of success he had.
Q: You got a firsthand look at his home life. When I think of influence, the rumour is that his current wife in turn has a lot of influence over him. Is this true?
A: Oh, heavens, yes. That boy is whipped like cream.
Q: One last on this subject, then we'll move on. Few of your readers have met Ben in person. Please describe for us his personal interactive style; what’s it like to kick it with him?
A: He's an incredibly friendly fellow. If you have something in common, he will happily engage you in a conversation. He's intelligent, well-read, funny, and well-spoken. He's not horribly rude and he doesn't tend to talk over you. All in all, a very pleasant experience. But it essentially hides what's going on underneath.
It's no coincidence, I believe, that he seems to change his behaviour when at a keyboard. It's a fear issue. If he bullies you when you're right in front of him, he doesn't know if you'll kick his arse or not. This goes double for big guys like you, me, or "Art Verbotten". He's more likely to play nice with us. But, behind the keyboard, everyone's on the same level, except intellectually. So he feels he's finally got an advantage. One of his biggest weaknesses is his faith in his superior intellect. He'll bully you intellectually, not always playing fair, and then when a decent person like yourself says "To hell with this," he steps in to declare victory.
He treats intellectual conflicts like a professional wrestler treats matches: he will play by the rules only as long as he can totally dominate you. Otherwise, he'll cheat like an Enron accountant.
Q: So if he isn't allowed to tilt the foosball table toward his opponent, he doesn't like to play?
A: Pretty much. He cannot stand the thought of losing, much less the actual loss. Which is why I think he descended into extra-Talossan measures to get at me. I took him on, on his own terms, and kept him from beating me. He got so frustrated with his failure to win, he lost it. He had to find some advantage, so he came up with the bizarre idea of investigating my criminal record. That was the only way left, as he saw it, to best me. And then that ultimately failed, since it was the single act that led directly to the Revolution.
Q: But that 'criminal record' opened the lid on some of the personal adversity you've had to face. Will you share some more of that with us, both the distant and more recent past?
A: I've been homeless, I've had bad relationships, I've handled my resources badly. That, in a nutshell, explains my misbehaviour as a young adult that led to my meagre criminal record. I have been arrested twice: once for shoplifting, once for failing to appear in court regarding a bounced check. I've had a single restraining order taken out against me by an ex-girlfriend. The reason for the order was a reaction to a Florida statute that says people who have lived in a house for six weeks or more cannot be removed without cause. I was told by a cop that she couldn't simply kick me out, but I agreed to leave the very next day so as not to cause a problem. My ex-girlfriend asked the cop what she could do to remove me, and the cop offered the possibility of a restraining order. So, I left, and she went and got a restraining order against me, so that I couldn't come back. Simple as that.
It had absolutely nothing to do with violence. Ben kept offering it as "proof" of some imagined "history of violence" I've never had, saying that was the only reason in the world to get such an order. He applied Amy's situation with her ex to my ex-girlfriend's. He basically convinced himself that he knew the whole story. When it was revealed to him by several people over and over again that my ex-girlfriend herself had the order lifted, he refused to believe it, making weird claims of how I "avoided being served" the order. Restraining orders don't have to be served in the state of Florida in order to be enforced. And there doesn't need to be any evidence of violence to issue one. Ben's mistake was that he took his weak knowledge of Wisconsin law to assume similar conditions in Florida. Which there aren't.
Q: But in addition, you've alluded to some serious adversity growing up. How do these life experiences affect your reactions to matters in Talossa? I couldn't ask that of everyone and hope for candour, but if you are anything it's self-honest.
A: I try to be. I think being abused as a child has caused me to be overly cautious when I think someone might be trying to manipulate me. This caused me to have my first conflict, albeit a small one, with Ben within my first three to four months as Prime Minister. I also have a tender empathy for those who may be abused, which is the source of my frustration over how Ben has treated many of my Talossan friends, including Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h and Tomás Gariçéir. Ben can say what he wants about me, but I'll be damned if I'll allow him to hurt them.
Q: What was this incident of conflict? The difference in opinion about other micronations?
A: That was part of it, yes. I remember telling him something along the lines of "Ben, I run this government; you don't. This is how we're going to operate until I say otherwise."
Q: How'd he take it?
A: He seemed to take it well at the time. He just wanted his protests to be formally noted. To his credit, he didn't give me "I told you so" when I came across the bug nations' demands.
Q: You also deal with some personal mental health issues, correct?
A: Yes. In 1993, I was diagnosed with clinical depression. Which is something I've never hidden from anyone nor used as an excuse.
Q: Do you take medication for it?
A: I used to, when I had a regular counselor. Zoloft.
Q: You're off it?
A: Yes, sir, I am. When you neither have medical insurance nor a counselor, it tends to work that way. (Laughs.)
Q: Don't get me started on our medical system or I'll fuck this up royally. Anyway, let us now go back to the night of Lisa's renunciation from the Kingdom in an anguished post. She mentioned you had gone off into the night. Tell us the story of that painful night.
A: I can't remember the proper sequence of events, but I'm sure a cursory glance of the posts would remind me.
Q: As best you recall.
A: I do remember that something Ben did or said got me very angry. Angry enough to start yelling, very loudly. Lisa wanted to know why I would flip out and I just got pissed that Ben was seemingly allowed to act any way he chose and almost no one would publicly call him on his behaviour. I said I was sick of no one taking my side, and stormed out of the house with the car keys. I got in the car and drove out, down the highway about 25 miles. I then turned around and came right back.
When I saw what happened on Witt after that, I fumed for quite a while after that. When I lose my temper, I lose it in a grand manner. To put it lightly. Lisa was freaked out about my behaviour and was crying and angry. She posted her big Fuck You to Talossa, sick of what qualities it was bringing out in me over the previous six to seven months. Let's just say I had lost my temper in a similar manner three or four times prior to that, almost always for the same reasons. She stated that she was voting None as an act of protest over the whole damn process. And Ben, ever the craven opportunist, took the moment to roll in his own fecal matter, so to speak, reveling in the apparent discord in the GCP. He instantly registered the None Party and claimed Lisa's "vote."
Michael Pope later told me that was the last straw for him (if I recall his words correctly).
Q: Do you think your clinical depression made you more susceptible to getting so worked up over such things?
A: Absolutely. I've lived with self-loathing all of my conscious life. Dealing with the idea of fighting for what I think is right, and being told privately that I was right then seeing little to nothing being done to vindicate me... that just sent me reeling. I hate being rejected. But I really hate my abuser getting away with his or her abuse.
Q: He didn't, though, in the long term...or do you feel he did?
A: I don't think he did. In the end, I took his toy away from him, in a manner of speaking. He wasn't punished to the full extent I would have preferred, but he got his. As a result, the Kingdom is doomed to revert to a one-man hobby. But, to paraphrase Jason Lee in one of my favourite films, Mallrats, "That's what he gets for fuckin' with me." (Laughs.)
Q: I don’t think you’d contest me if I said you were straightforward to a fault. Is there anything you can remember saying in Talossa that you’d like to take back?
A: Yes. I wish I'd never told him to drop dead. The rest of my remarks I've either paid for in full or still don't regret. But that one remark I regret simply because of the collateral damage it caused thanks to Ben's reaction.
Q: Besides that, is there any one big regret you have about your Talossan experience?
A: I wish I would have been more judicious in my manner and methods. I tend to be a tiger, ravaging anything and anyone I feel has wronged me in some way. But I think my moments that I failed to use proper strategy have sort of marked me, alas.
Q: Has anyone gotten the short end of the Talossan stick in the wake of the final crisis that led to secession?
A: Yes. Tomás Gariçéir comes to mind first. Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h also does. He has a bad habit of taking on too much blame for events that go wrong. I've explained to him that the Hallowe'en Event was Ben's fault, not his own. And Devin Burr, to be sure. His heart was in the right place, but his lack of viewing the conflict in the proper context sort of distorted his opinions. There's probably others, but I cannot recall all of them at this late hour.
Q: How and when did the idea of the Republic first occur to you?
A: I have the very email that started it for me. It was 24 November 2003, after Michael Pope had pointed out to the PC/GCP mailing list that we could not allow Ben to have the upper hand in any negotiation. My response: "Let me declare it unequivocally now, just so there's no confusion: I am calling for the removal of Ben from the Throne and the eventual removal of the monarchy. Talossa has no use for the monarchy any more. The time has come for a Talossan republic. Ben is bad for Talossa, ESPECIALLY as King."
Mention of the Republic in that e-mail predates any suggestions by J.P. Griffin or Martì-Paír Furxhéir. The idea didn't take off immediately, but as things got worse, I pushed it more and more.
Q: So you were the first to use the word 'Republic' in private counsel, to your knowledge?
A: Absolutely. I don't mean to act like I am somehow the end-all be-all of the Republic, but that's where it all began. As an idea to remove Ben from the throne.
Q: Your thinking then was that you would find a way to sack Ben. Could it have been done?
A: At the time, I was convinced we could have done it, but it would take a lot of work. A handful of people, including Michael Pope and Matthias Muth, agreed. But, looking back, there's no way, legally within the OrgLaw, to do so. Hence the ultimate frustration that led months later to the secession plan.
Q: You’ve come out pretty strongly against any reconciliation with the Regipats. Long term, then, how do you see the Tale of Two Talossas unfolding?
A: I see the Kingdom atrophying and withering into nothingness. The Republic's presence on the world stage will cause it to overshadow the peak of the Kingdom. We've deliberately made every effort to avoid allowing power to become so concentrated in one person's hands that only democracy can come of our efforts. As long as that is true, and as long as people are attracted to our community, we should be able to continue and thrive for a long, long time. Eventually, I honestly feel the Republic will be bigger than the Kingdom has ever been, given we're genuinely interested in fostering a community. This isn't simply self-aggrandising rhetoric; this is based on historical models. Or something. (Laughs.)
Q: You and I have served on the Constitutional Committee, where our job was basically to take away all our sneaky ways to grab and hold power. I've always suspected that Ben had at least half a dozen Organic Law weapons he had thought of, with infinite leisure, that no one would know about until he let fly with them in extremis. Do you agree?
A: I think he thinks he has, since he tried one last time to do something like that to Martì-Paír Furxhéir just before the Revolution occurred. But that's part of why hates me as much as he does. I took on his feeble legal argument and destroyed every one of his points. It's not the legalistic maneuvering that helps him retain power; it's his pocket vote crap. As long as he maintains his army of obedient voters, he can change anything he wants to change. To him, all laws are thermoplastic.
Q: Marti-Pair's canning Ben as Deputy SoS really shook things up, didn't it?
A: Indeed, it did. But it was a good move, one that I advised M-P to take. You see, he wanted to make sure that whatever strategy he pursued, it was legal and defensible in the Uppermost Cort. After going over the OrgLaw, I assured him that there was nothing Ben could do about his own being fired.
Q: Except piss and moan.
A: We anticipated the lawsuit over the election rules, which is why they were written the way they were. None of the Deputy SoS election rules stuff occurred before M-P consulted me first as his legal counsel. He retained me for actual cash, to be honest.
Q: You mean he sent you money?
A: Not quite. The party registration for that election was $5, if I recall correctly. M-P offered me $5 for me to be retained as legal counsel. Since he was also SoS, you can see how that $5 I earned was spent. The GCP got itself registered, and M-P got his professional legal counsel. As far as I know, I'm the only legal counsel in Talossan history to accept a payment of any actual monetary value. And on top of that, I earned every penny by winning the case big-time. It's still one of my proudest moments as a Talossan.
Q: But of them all, what's your proudest?
A: To be honest, before 1 June 2004, I would have said being a part of TalossaFest or being sworn in as Seneschál. But, looking back, fighting for and helping achieve the Republic is as good as it gets. We've really created something special here. I don't get my way every day in the Republic, but not once in the Republic, have I flipped out the way I did just months prior to the Revolution. Knowing that these other people felt the same way I did and were willing to take such a drastic stand... that's amazing to me.
Q: You haven't flipped out, but you've spoken pretty strongly more than once. A credible observer might sense that you were losing your cool. When you title a post "FUCK YOU," that's pretty strong language. Do you ever regret speaking as bluntly as you often do?
A: Oh, indeed I do. I wish M-P and I could have resolved our issue in private and I wish I hadn't been so pissed that day, but there it is, forever. All I can do is own up to my mistakes and work to avoid them in the future. I hope I can honestly say that I have learned from many of my mistakes in the past. And I hope that people will notice a change for the better.
Q: Fair enough. Who’s the citizen or Friend of the Republic you’ve known longest, and for how long?
A: Ián Anglatzar&airc; and I came in to the Kingdom together in February 1998. He was my SoS at one point. I'd like to believe we've been friends throughout all of this time. Although, I've dealt with Matthias Muth a tad longer, since he was a Justice assigned to screening me as a prospective. Muth and I found a connexion when I said my favourite book was The Illuminatus! Trilogy. The whole of the Talluminati -- which does not exist, no matter what the conspiracy theorists say -- was our creation in early 1999. So between those two, I'd say those are my longest Republic-related relationships.
Q: Tomás Gariçeir is the strongest non-Ben proponent of el glheþ Talossán in the Kingdom. You have known him well. Do you think he’ll ever join the Republic?
A: God, I wish he would. He's pretty much the Talossan I've been closest to (if you don't count Lisa, of course), and I still talk to him on a semi-regular basis. But I've learned to keep the conversation with him about languages, since he and I are working on a language together, as well as his help in getting me to learn some Talossan! I think he'll only join the Republic once and if the Kingdom implodes from the 'net scene. I doubt he'll ever do another TalossaFest again, though. This war zapped his energy for Talossa for the most part. God, I did everything I could to sway him to our side, believe me. It still hurts my heart to know he's "over there."
Q: Do you think Ben has pressured him to cut us all dead?
A: Not really. I think after Tomás' inspired outbursts regarding the language on the FakeWitt, Ben may have gotten the message that he's slowly losing Tomás’s automatic support. Tomás is not much of a fighter and seeks to avoid fights for the most part. I'm really proud of him for standing up for what's right. Ben may be seeing that, if he loses Tomás, he will have lost the last person interested in knowing the language fluently. So he's most likely playing it cautious from here on out. If he doesn't, he will have made Tomás' mind for him.
Q: How do you suppose Ben feels, knowing that basically he's the loss of one key citizen away from obscurity, and that the power is not in his hands?
A: Desperate, to say the least. He's been relatively quiet lately, making only pointed barbs at individuals like myself (mostly to antagonise me into a public fight, I'd bet), knowing that he'd lose another big public fight. I'm fully prepared to go to the mattresses against this guy one more time, for now, with the support I've got in the Republic, my cause is truly just. Correction: our cause is just. I let my ego slip away for a second there. (Laughs.) But my point stands: he's been marginalised big time and cannot afford another full-on war. So he's playing it guerilla. Either way, he's turning into David Koresh.
Q: Is there a way that a public fight can occur? You can't post there. He can't post on our Witt.
A: I'm sure, that if a public fight was going to break out in some form, it would. And, yes, if I wanted to, I could post over there. Any one of us could, since there's no real security on their FakeWitt. And if he sent in a contingent of supporters posing as Friends, we could take them down one by one, without necessarily simply banning their accounts. The primary reason we instituted accounts in the first place was to avoid bugs and board-spammers. It's not about censorship. I am not saying I know how a public fight would occur; I'm just saying that there's bound to be a way, and if it occurs, we will win again. Except, we'd pretty much wipe him off the map entirely.
Q: You’ve expressed plans to run for President; if you’re elected, your every action will set a President Precedent. Tell us what sort of pattern a Gruber Presidency would seek to establish for the office.
A: Interesting question. I've not thought of it in those terms before.
Q: Then do so now, if you would.
A: Well, I think I'd mostly like to set basic precedents: procedure, for example. And policy is more personal to the individual president and his party, so anything I do specifically policy-wise would not necessarily be imitated or adopted. Procedure, for damn sure. And the willingness to use power in a heavy-handed way would be cautious, I'd hope. There's a certain amount of power a Head of State has. I'd hope that we'd learned our lessons from the Kingdom and be judicious in our plans. I'd also like to set any and all presidents to be regarded as statespersons worthy of respect. Is there anything specific you had in mind?
Q: Open-ended question. That would be about the worst place I could think of to ask a leading question.
A: Yeah, seems so to me. It's open-ended enough that I'm not sure how to put my answer. I hope that I've done your question justice.
Q: As the Thelemites say: "There is no grace; there is no guilt. This is the law: do as thou wilt."
A: Ah, a little Crowley in our interview. How oddly refreshing.
Q: And now we come to a lighter note. This has been a very long interview with a buttload of serious, intrusive questions. Since that offends my native sense of manners and priorities, and you’re known as a funny man and storyteller, tell us the funniest thing you’ve ever seen happen in Talossa.
A: God, that's a tough one. I got quite a laugh out of the Brewers remark. I guess I'd have to say that the dinner at the Greek restaurant -- Grecian Delight, I believe -- the second night I was in Talossa was hilarious. Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h defended his multitude of Prime Dictates, only admitting his condemnation of the hot dog mascot was frivolous.
And going on the two-car tour of Talossa with "Art Verbotten" as our tour guide was funny as hell. Ben was the lead car, and his sense of sequence is faulty, it seems. After passing by the same water tower in Maritiimi-Maxhestic we had passed twice before, "Art" remarked: "Remember that thing we saw twice earlier? Yeah, well, it's till there." Or something like that.
Q: Okay, now the dumbest. What’s the most blitheringly idiotic act you can remember seeing?
A: I think that the biggest blithering idiot in my experience would have to be something associated with Gary Cone or Mark Hamilton. I cannot specify; both provide so many wonderful things. However, I did at least one really colossally stupid thing... I lost the Talo-Penguinean Peace Treaty.
Q: D'oh. Chris, is there anything else you'd like to say to the multitudes?
A: I hope we can all work together, with our disparate experiences and individual talents, to build the Republic into that which it deserves to be: something magnificent in the eyes of history. And, thanks for everyone who's stuck through this interview this far down the page.
Q: And thank you, Chris Gruber.