William Cooper, 15-16 March 2005
Interviewer: J K Kelley
Color me naïve, though. For a long time I simply thought that all this stuff was made up and Ben wasn’t serious. After all, we were supposed to be having fun, right?
Q: Let’s get the basic biographical stuff out of the way. Might I ask your age?
A: I'm 53.
Q: See why I call you 'Mr. Cooper?' (Laughs.) What sort of lines of work have you done? Educational background?
A: (Laughs.) I went to high school of course, then spent some time in college, mostly playing, went into the US Air Force where I was an in-service recruiter, then after I got out, went to school to become a Health Care Administrator, and worked at that until 2 years ago. And now I'm presently unemployed until my chemotherapy is over anyway.
Q: So most of your work experience is in health care management. How do you feel that affects your perspective on Talossa, if at all?
A: I'm not really sure that it affects my perspective much. I mean, my job was to make sure that elderly and impaired individuals received needed treatment in a safe environment. About the only thing I developed in relationship to the job was more patience. Something I haven't much needed in the Republic, and which was no help in the kingdom.
Q: Intriguing statement. Patience “was no help in the Kingdom?” Could you expand on that?
A: I think it's the quality of patience that I have available to me. When it comes to someone I don't feel knows any better, like the frail elderly, impaired individuals, or animals even, I'm able to put up with a great deal of foolishness, pettiness, vindictiveness, and spitefulness. But I'm unable to come up with a great deal of patience with someone I think should know better. Maybe I should have said that patience was no help with the king instead.
Q: Let's go back a bit further. How’d you first learn about Talossa?
A: I was bored. I just started looking up stuff on Yahoo, when I came across micronationalism. It looked interesting, so I checked out several micronations, then hit Talossa, which seemed to be serious about itself while still maintaining an air of fun. So I checked out the message board, seemed like a pretty nice place with really intelligent people, so I threw my name into the hat, and the rest is history, so to speak.
Q: Give us a look into your feelings in your first days of citizenship. What did you expect and hope for?
A: I've always been attracted to people who I felt were more intelligent than I am. I felt I found a place with plenty of people like that, and they were friendly and welcoming, which is what I hoped for. I dropped into Talossa during a period of relative peace. The only negativeness at the time seemed to be Ben's marriage and his posts about his wife, but I really paid no attention to those, since I felt he probably knew what he was talking about, and I didn't.
Q: I know you can't speak for others, but you can give your perception. Do you reckon that many others shared that sentiment--that Ben knew what he was talking about better than they?
A: Yes, I think so. I think most people felt that Ben had been used and he was lashing out in justifiable anger.
Q: What was the first big Talossan controversy you can recall?
A: The first one concerned Ben's marriage. Someone with religious leanings posted that they were against divorce. And all hell broke loose. I think at that time, I wasn't even a citizen. But again, I think there was a feeling that Ben's anger was justifiable simply because he was the injured party.
Q: Does that seem like a tempest in a teapot now?
A: I'm not sure that it does. I think anyone who's been through a divorce like that is going to feel angry, and a bit spiteful and vindictive. And someone telling you that they don't think you should be able to get a divorce is likely to set you off.
Q: Okay. So this controversy didn't set off any warning bells in the back of your mind?
A: Maybe just a little. I remember hesitating a bit before I decided to go ahead with submitting stuff for citizenship, but there had been no sign at that time that it was anything more than just an overreaction by someone who'd been hurt. Remember, none were speaking highly of his wife of the time.
Q: True. Did you ever get to know the old TLP crew?
A: Yes, though very slightly. That was my fault though, I was trying hard to fit in, so was going with the flow. Much to my regret.
Q: What was your impression of them at the time?
A: They were very nice people. I was having a hard time believing that they were "bad" people, who only wanted to ruin Talossa. Their demeanor said otherwise. But, I thought that there must have been things that went on before I found the message board that I didn't know about, and in fact, that's what I was told by Ben.
Q: Did he lobby you in private about it?
A: Actually no. He was right out front about it, posting on Wittenberg.
Q: Speaking of controversial figures, you got to know one of the most colourful figures in Talossan history, Ronalt Rosais. Tell us a little about the Ronalt you know.
A: Of course, I'd read Ár Päts, and the book by Ian Metáiriâ, so I was expecting someone whose goal in life was to disrupt Talossa in any way possible. Ron wasn't like that at all. Matter of fact, Ron was very into Talossa, especially on the provincial level as was I. Together, we formed the Vuodean Provincial Party, and started working on the Provincial Constitution with Ben's blessings. Ron has very definite ideas about things, but when approached he's very reasonable about trying to see your point of view. I was very sorry when I had to remove myself from the party due to personal reasons that had nothing to do with Talossa.
Q: So is it safe to say you were glad to see him come to the Republic, and sorry to see him go?
A: Yes. I don't know what went on with Ron here. But I would have liked him to stick around.
Q: Where did your disenchantment with the Kingdom begin?
A: With the TLP. I mean, I may not be the brightest bulb in the forest (sorry, one of my weird ways of putting things), but I can read. Once Ben started making up stuff that the TLP supposedly said that I knew was wrong, I figured that anything from before was probably made up too. Color me naïve, though. For a long time I simply thought that all this stuff was made up and Ben wasn't serious. After all, we were supposed to be having fun, right? Still, even after I realized what was going on, I tried to fit in by taking Ben's side. I never once considered the TLP would leave en masse.
Q: What did you make of it when they all renounced?
A: I was both flabbergasted and relieved. Flabbergasted because I never expected it. Relieved because I thought that just maybe things would get back to normal. Unfortunately, things did.
Q: That's a statement that begs amplification.
A: What I hadn't realized until then was that ‘normal’ was exactly what had just taken place with the TLP. The use of mostly imagined slights to Ben to demonize someone so he could hold them up as an example of why he had to remain vigilant in defense of Talossa, and why Talossa had to remain closed to any "bug" nations. And to prop up his visions of himself as a martyr whom everyone hated, though he didn't know why.
Q: Looking back, why do you suppose he felt compelled to act in such a fashion?
A: Ben's perceptions of himself as far as I can determine is of someone who is magnanimous, intelligent, giving and forgiving. I don't think he's ever been serious about Talossa being on its own without him. He may talk the part, but I don't think the reality bears him out. He's quick to point out what he's done in the past to bring about a Talossa without him, but in my opinion, they've just been lackluster attempts. And it's the same with almost every other facet about him. If he does anything that can be perceived as magnanimous, he's the first to bring it up as an example of his magnanimity, but it's really just a weak attempt at it. So then he can say to others "See, I'm magnanimous!" It's the same with his so-called martyrdom. At least, this is my opinion.
Q: So you think he's delusional?
A: Yes, I think he deludes himself. Lots of people do it though. (Laughs.) I like to think I'm a fairly nice person, but there are times when I delude myself about something I might have done that shows I'm not.
Q: Okay. Do you think he believes his own propaganda?
A: I think he tries. But deep down I think he knows better. I think that's why he tries to bring in everyone else into his way of thinking. He uses it to help delude himself.
Q: After the TLP business opened your eyes, can you identify any other major events that increased your discontent before what let's call Grubi’sPastGate?
A: There were actually several things. One was Ben's reaction to me joining the RCT. My perception of politics at the beginning was that we were playing politics, I really didn't believe there was that much difference between the parties, especially RCT and the PC, so when they offered me a seat in the Cosâ, I decided to join them. After all, this stuff was supposed to be fun. Ben's reaction to me joining RCT was anything but fun. He basically accused me of being a traitor to the PC because my original intention was to become a member of that party. No amount of explaining to him that I didn't see a difference between the two parties -- so I had not felt I was betraying anyone -- ever convinced him.The other was our disagreement regarding Provincial Corts. I wanted to make a difference in Talossa. I'd read the constitution frontwards and backwards, and I was of the opinion that provincial corts should be operating. The constitution already set up the rules for provincial corts, I just wanted to get them set up. Ben was very vocal in his opposition to them, saying he didn't see the reason for them. So, we went through a period where we exchanged messages, me trying to explain why I felt it was needed, he explaining where he was opposed. I finally decided it just wasn't worth the argument. Imagine my surprise when I found that once I stopped talking about provincial corts, Ben started trying to get one set up in Vuode Province. His only reason for being against it was evidently that it wasn't his idea. If had been honestly opposed, I could have understood, but he wasn't honest about it. And that got me to thinking about everything else.About that time is when my offline world was falling apart, so my presence in Talossa was severely limited to maybe once a month for a long period of time. I always managed to get a vote in to maintain my citizenship. But that was about all.
Q: So you had a very firsthand experience with Ben's concept of 'traitors.'
A: Actually, only a small amount. I think it was really only a slightly over a week, then something happened with the TLP that took his mind off me, and put it back on them. I also think that he may not have been as upset with me as he was pretending. I still believe there was not that much difference between RCT and PC, and I think even he realized that.
Q: Were you active when the Ben/Grubi feud started to heat up, or was real life the more prominent concern by that time?
A: I was out of the loop then. By the time I was back, the Halloween Crisis had calmed down to a dull roar, but was beginning to heat up again.
Q: So you came back to find that a reasonably steady stream of shit hitting the fan?
A: Yes. I was looking to renew my contact with my fellow Talossans. Before I did that, I read all of Wittenberg I could. So I knew something had gone on. Unfortunately, that didn't prepare me for the continued rancor between Ben and Grubi.
Q: What, at the time, did you expect the ultimate result of that rancour to be?
A: I was afraid that it would be the same for Grubi as it was for the TLP. He's really tenacious though. I did take issue with Grubi over what he said to Ben concerning his mother. But other than that, I figured Ben was overreacting, as usual.
Q: You expected it to end with Chris renouncing, driven out of Talossa.
A: Yes.
Q: When you saw that wasn't going to happen, then what did you make of the situation? Or did your own renunciation come first?
A: When Grubi apologized, I thought maybe everything would be okay, I really expected Ben to not want to be outdone by someone else's magnanimity. I watched as the situation turned from bad to worse. When Ben checked into Grubi's personal life, I was taken aback at first, then I started getting angry. I knew I didn't join in the community to have my personal life checked out by someone I disagreed with. That I joined with the idea that this was supposed to be fun, and that it never really had been, irked me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed talking with the others, and being their friend. It's what made it worthwhile. But I could look back over the time I spend in Talossa, and any time being a citizen was less than fun, it was because of Ben.
Q: Try hard to think back to the day you decided to renounce. Can you sum up in one word your feelings as you composed the post?
A: Anger. But actually there was more. I was really upset that I had to leave people I considered friends behind.
Q: You have a reputation as a very even-tempered, good-hearted guy. Could you describe in more detail what you were feeling?
A: I was angry because what Ben did was to me a betrayal of the rules under which I agreed to join the community. I was angry because he was saying some really horrific stuff to people I cared about. I was saddened because I knew I couldn't continue to be a part of the community under those conditions.My original intent was just to request my personal information be removed from anywhere in Talossa's webpages. Not that I had anything to hide, it was just meant as a protest. But the more I wrote, the more I knew I needed to renounce my citizenship in protest, I figured it would maybe get more attention.
Q: You succeeded, I think, but at the time did you just walk away and pay no further attention to Witt?
A: No. I checked the next day to see if my account had been deleted. It hadn't, so I checked it out. I was floored by “Art Verbotten”'s renunciation. I had been agonizing over my own renunciation, his own renouncement made me feel better about my own. I was still unhappy though, because of the people I felt I was leaving behind. Anyway, I kept reading Witt when I could. But I was in the hospital when the revolution came, so I missed it.
Q: By this time, your real life had been falling apart. If it's not prying, could you give us some details?
A: My step-dad had died, and as a result of bad dealings [business mistakes on his part], our business went under. That was the first thing. I had no job, and no prospects for any, because around the same time, my health went south. Finally, in May of this past year, I ended up in the hospital during which I was diagnosed with bladder [cancer], and then later prostate cancer. It took them over a month to diagnose the cancer, and another month for me to recover from being hospitalized sufficiently to return home.During that last month I was resident in a long-term care institution, also known as a nursing home. Since I had no insurance, and no money, it took a while for things to be set up for me to have surgery, and the doctors had to agree to do the surgery with the possibility of receiving no pay. I was lucky, I had very good doctors that had no thought to making money. I had surgery on the 27th of October during which my bladder and prostate were removed and my doctor set me up with a urostomy since I no longer had a bladder. It was a 12 hour operation, and took 2 weeks before they finally let me wake up, then another 10 days before I finally got to come home.
Q: That's extremely traumatic. I think I safely speak for our entire citizenry when I wish you continued recovery. What's your prognosis?
A: Thank you. There is no sign of cancer in my body right now, but we're still doing chemotherapy to get any that might be there that's not showing up. Otherwise, my prognosis, if I make it through the chemotherapy, is very good. I'll be checked every 3 months for 6 years to catch it in case it does reappear.
Q: Excellent. So what shape were you in when you learned of the Republic?
A: I was still pretty weak. I'd just gotten out of the nursing home, was still having a bit of problem sitting upright in a chair, but glad to be home to my computer. The first place I checked was Wittenberg. And once again was blown away, and joyful. Almost everyone I cared anything about in the Kingdom was here in the Republic! I was overjoyed, and with only a small amount of trepidation--I'd renounced my citizenship after all—[I] posted on the Republic's Witt. I was happy to be home.
Q: Tell me how you feel we differ from the Kingdom.
A: Friendlier. There's not a high level of stress here like there was in the Kingdom. Everyone seems happier, more welcoming. I like that.
Q: The entire Republic is listening (but hey, no pressure). Whether you acknowledge it or not, people respect what you have to say. What guidance do you offer your fellow citizens as we embark on a new political era?
A: Be serious about the Republic, but keep it fun. Continue to be open and welcoming to all comers.
Q: Seems like good advice to me. Anything else you'd like to say before we conclude?
A: I love the Republic. The most important thing that's happened to me recently is becoming a citizen of it. I would like to say that being a part of it has helped my mental status immensely during my recent illnesses. Thanks to all of you for allowing me to be a part of it.
Q: And thank you, Mr. William Cooper. We all look forward to seeing your health allow you to take as great a role in the Republic as you desire.