J K Kelley, 6 March 2005
Interviewer: Chris Gruber
The genius of the Kingdom is characterized by petulance, control freakism, manipulation and when necessary, outright intimidation. The genius of the Republic is welcome and participation.
Q: Let's start with a standard question: what attracted you to Talossa in the first place, about six years ago?
A: Honestly, the first thing was the main Kingdom webpage. I loved the tongue-in-cheek nature of it. The picture of Taco Bell as ethnic cuisine had me howling.
Q: So you figured Talossa is pretty much an entertaining lark?
A: I didn't really know. But I developed a perception at the time.
Q: How quickly did that perception change? And what changed it?
A: About three posts into my first Wittenberg foray. To really answer that, I'll have to explain the first perception.
Q: Go ahead.
A: Well, I saw the picture of young Ben in the Romanian train conductor's hat, and I seemed to see a true iconclast, an independent spirit--yet one who had the strength to forge something funny and fun that had grown and prospered. It impressed the hell out of me. And I felt that Ben Madison and I would be kindred spirits. The Ben I saw on Witt was not the Ben I had gleaned from www.execpc.com/~talossa.
Q: You saw someone who was in it for the fun as much as anything?
A: Originally, yes. Someone strong enough in his position to share control of his creation with others with good humour, much liked as a result. A Beneficent monarch.
Q: And, as you said, within three posts on Wittenberg, you were put off that initial impression?
A: Or thereabouts. The first thing I noticed was that Ben's default setting was attack mode. He was already in that mode regarding TLP [the Talossan Liberal Party]. Very quickly he was in it regarding me, simply because I mentioned that I was a Hellenic pagan. I didn't quantify that for him much, and he quickly sketched a literary caricature of it and mocked it. At that time his admitted bigotries were pagans and Australians. Good thing I wasn't Australian.
Q: (Laughs.) Indeed. Did you formulate any idea why he was acting that way? Being so... hostile and antagonistic?
A: Well, at this point I still believed most of Ár Päts. And to go by that, Ben had faced a long list of resolute haters trying to tear him down. That was credible enough; that has happened to many visionaries. so I thought, well, he's developed a quick trigger finger. But I also began to realize he was just plain rude. And that he was Bending my words, twisting past posts. I never saw anyone who could morph the recent past so quickly and negatively in my life. It was Goebbelsian.
Q: Goebbelsian? So there was a Nazi flavour from the get-go? (Laughs.)
A: I wouldn't say Nazi. I'm thinking mainly of the propaganda factor. The most twisted example of effective propaganda that comes to my mind just happens to be that of Goebbels.
Q: Were these attacks offensive to you in a personal manner, or did they simply turn you off Talossa?
A: Both. It didn't take me long to decide I didn't want to hang around. Ben had the silent acquiescence of almost everyone on Witt. I decided it was a place full of people with no balls.
Q: And yet you still hung around the outskirts, watching us from afar?
A: No, there was a second spasm. Danihél Rođgarüt wrote to me, a very kind e-mail, asking that I reconsider. He wasn't rough on Ben except to say what I already knew: that Ben sometimes went off on people. so I decided to come back. I saw that I had the support of the second largest party, which helped. I posted again, said I was through talking about my religion, and was still interested.
Q: And what happened?
A: Oh, man. He was pissed. He swore to keep me out, and began a campaign of morphing verbal abuse and ridicule.
Q: So at that point, it wasn't simply mocking and indulging in admitted biases; he outright wanted to hurt you?
A: There was no question. He tried many angles, and he was creative. He's always been good with words. He even went so far as to hint that if I went away for a year, maybe he'd reconsider. I noticed a tone of desperation creeping into his phrasing.
Q: So there was sort of "push-and-pull" tone underlying his weird attacks?
A: Not sure I'd say it quite that way, but I would put it this way: I could see him straining. Behind the scenes it was clear he was buttonholing everyone, politicking, probably libeling and slandering, and otherwise making sure everyone knew that to support me in any way would bring Royal Disappointment. I'm pretty sure he even had a spy in the TLP mailing counsels.
Q: A spy, huh?
A: Yeah, I have good reason to think so.
Q: Any evidence, or is this not the time or place?
A: It is most defintely the time and place. It was like this: there was a mailing group composed of TLP members plus a few sympathetic sorts, or those perceived to be. One of these individuals had written to me to interview me about my citizenship bid. I answered all his questions candidly and reasonably. Yet there was one detail I never said on Witt that Ben somehow got. He could only have gotten it from a few people. And that was that I had been persuaded to return by TLP members. I just said I'd been persuaded. I didn't say publicly by whom. Only someone in those counsels would have known.
Q: Did you formulate any theories about Madison's true motivations or did you simply write him off?
A: Something Ben said about me became somewhat true. He was saying that if I was let in, I would cause trouble. Originally that was false, but I'll say honestly that it no longer was. If I got in, I was going to join TLP and pay his sorry ass back. (Pause.) Sorry, that realy didn't address your question.
Q: Not a problem. When the TLP bolted from the Talossan political scene with their infamous boycott of the legislature, what did you think?
A: I wasn't surprised. A man can only stand in an ever-deepening vat of piss before it gets above his head. I figured that now that Ben had absolutely no meaningful opposition, he would need a new enemy. I didn't see how he could hold out any length of time without an Emmanuel Goldstein.
Q: So you were watching Talossa even after your departure?
A: I never stopped.
Q: What was so appealing about Talossa that you decided to take a seat in the audience? Most people who were in your shoes left it behind altogether, but you chose to keep up with the RT. Why?
A: Several reasons. For one thing, I wanted to make sure to collect whatever evidence I needed in case the libel went too far. also, I was rooting for his downfall. I have never pretended not to be vengeful. I figured things might change, and they might be fun to watch.
Q: You're a historian, right?
A: I have a bachelor's degree in it.
Q: So you're used to taking a detached, objective position when it comes to watching something like this unfold, I imagine.
A: It's sort of like a hat I can put on.
Q: Were there any Talossan personalities that stood out in this rich pageant? Or was it simply Ben's World and We Were Just Living in It?
A: A number of personalities stood out, but except for TLP most of them seemed to be merely Ben's compliant extensions. Art verbotten was a notable exception. That changed later, of course, but I think you're asking about the Greek God Guy days.
Q: No, I mean during your Period of Exile, as it were. You were in a position to observe people and things, rather than be a passionate part of the proceedings.
A: Oh. Sorry. Well, during my Exile, up to a point nearly everyone but TLP seemed to toe the Ben line. Then came the breakup of the PC. I think that's the defining moment where people's Talossan existence began to exist independent of Ben.
Q: Were you cheering from the sidelines?
A: And how!
Q: So when the breakup of the PC led to more and more heated confrontations in the Talossan public forum, did you see any particular conclusion coming from all of this?
A: I didn't foresee the founding of the Republic. I did expect a wave of renunciations. I underestimated the staying power of the Talossan concept.
Q: What events prior to 1 June 2004 stand out in your mind as especially powerful in this little drama?
A: the big one, really, was the feud between you and Ben. The short answer there is that Ben's tactics and persistence against you turned off a lot of his former supporters. When he was caught digging for dirt on you, he looked horseshit. I think at that point, the Michael Popes and Gödafrďeu Válcadác’hs of Talossa began to ask themselves: "Wait a minute. [Ián Anglatzarâ] never did me any wrong. Maybe he wasn't so bad. I know Chris; he's made mistakes, but he's not evil incarnate. He has a knighthood for God's sake. Maybe the problem is the King."
Q: Did you see this conflict in any historical context? Or was it simply a little community?
A: The tea definitely went into the harbour when Ben put Max[ime Paquin-Charbonneau] in as PM. You guys weren't going to stand by for that.
Q: And when Wittenberg was taken over on 1 June, what was your immediate reaction?
A: I believe I opened a bottle of single-malt, poured myself a shot, and toasted the Republic of Talossa.
Q: No shock, no surprise, no gasps of awe?
A: I had seen hints. but I hadn't expected the timing, nor the large number of founders. It was more than I'd ever expected. less surprise than jubilation. And since Ben was out of the country, it was even funnier.
Q: And in the days immediately following that one, what happened?
A: I watched with more interest than I had even while you and Ben were slugging it out. I wanted to see what your Republic would really be. Not for nothing had I refrained from burning bridges.
Q: I assume you were hoping for us to not drop the ball once we had possession, so to speak. Did we deliver on your hope?
A: Beyond my hope. You had energy, principles and had quickly set up an efficient means of government. The Talossan diaspora, a term I'm kind of proud to have coined, began to come in.
Q: How quickly after the Seizure of Witt did you begin to start the process of returning?
A: I think it was when I saw the reception Miestrâ Schivâ got. It seemed like the door might be open for me. As you may recall, when I was originally voted down, I didn't fire a parting blast. I said nothing. I didn't beg, nor did I alienate anyone. I just left with dignity and sat in the stands. So there was no direct reason to think anyone in the Republic hated my guts.
Q: Your reception into the Kingdom was not just frosty, but downright acidic. Compare that to your reception into the Republic.
A: Well, in the Kingdom, people were friendly at first, but when Ben became negative, people just stopped talking to me. my entry into the Republic was handled with much greater care. I thought long and hard who to write to.
Q: And who did you choose? How did it go?
A: it came down to Michael Pope or Gödafrďeu Válcadác’h. And I had the latter's e-mail address. plus, he knew me only as a nutjob, but not personally. All he knew about me was said by Ben. Well, he had stopped viewing everything else through Ben's lens. He seemed like a good guy. At the same time, Gödafrďeu's a committed Christian, so this would be a good test. If he had an open mind, despite our differences of faith, the possibilities were good. It went superbly--I couldn't have asked for a kinder reaction. soon I heard from Michael Pope, who was his usual good-hearted self.
Q: And after that, it was just a matter of diving in to Wittenberg and having a good swim?
A: I knew I might have some doubters. but I also knew that I needed do nothing but be myself.
Q: Has your opinion of the Republic or her people changed at all since then?
A: It's improved. I've come to know several people better. I've jumped to conclusions and had to reconsider them. I'm very grateful to the Republic for a lot, and it hasn't even been around that long. 'Greek god guy' has become my 'nigger.' By adopting it, laughing over it and using it myself in ways, a term used to debase me has become a big joke that we all laugh at. It's very healthy.
Q: So, you'd say the Republic is a more mature Talossa?
A: More mature, more democratic, and undominated by a cult of twisted personality. Documented by facts and sense rather than twisted bullshit.
Q: So, in a way, less fascistic?
A: Not fascist at all. There are many opportunities for involvement. I've politely declined more than I can recall. Right now, anyone in the Republic who wishes to help shape it can do so in a dozen ways.
Q: An open-source society?
A: That's a pretty good analogy. The Kingdom is Internet Explorer. The Republic is Mozilla.
Q: Going back to the historical perspective bit, how do you see the great conflict of 2003-2004 in the Kingdom?
A: Can you give me a defining beginning and ending event here?
Q: The Hallowe'en Event to the Seizure of Fort Witt.
A: It was kind of like the Kingdom developed Parkinson's [Disease]. It grew increasingly less lucid and coherent, and descended into madness. From a historical perspective, it reminds me somewhat of the long-term downfall of the Roman Empire.
Q: And the rise of the Republic?
A: That looks a lot like the American Revolution. Spasms of independence followed by schism.
Q: But ultimately, no tyranny.
A: None. If anything, it gets more democratic as that democracy becomes codified. One historical item worth looking at is the roman concept of the 'genius.' The Romans believed that any group had a sort of spirit, which they called its 'genius'. for example, the genius of the tenth legion. The genii of the Republic and Kingdom could not be more different.
Q: How would you define these respective genii?
A: The genius of the Kingdom is characterized by petulance, control freakism, manipulation and when necessary, outright intimidation. The genius of the Republic is welcome and participation. I suspect that many in the Kingdom feel as we do, but are unwilling to let go of Ben's friendship. That friendhsip must exert a mighty gravitational pull, because it held so many of you for so long even when his actions were just plain rectal.
Q: How great is the test faced by the Republic as the Constitution comes into its final form, in your opinion?
A: I think the test is whether we can accept a document that can never totally satisfy any one person, but has tried hard to cover as many important issues for as many people as they were willing to throw out for debate. If the PGC [Provisional Governing Council] ratifies it, I would say that we have reached that. for example the preamble. I still don't agree with you about it, but I wouldn't refuse to ratify the document over that, or over some other minor issue. I would only vote contrâ if I felt there were a time bomb in it, and if there is, it's my fault because I'm supposed to spot and defuse them in my [Constitutional Committee] capacity.
Q: Where are headed in the immediate future as a nationette? Is our future particularly bright? And how might our pasts come back to haunt us?
A: That's a lot of questions. In the immediate future, I think we're headed for a truly Republican form of government, which will instigate a new phase of partisan politics. If those politics are handled with civility and respect for the process above all, our future is bright. If we become dicks to each other, voices will grow quiet and interest will dim.
Q: So, if handled well, nothing but blue skies?
A: I think we will have crises. I think every nation does. I think how we handle them will define us.
Q: Forgive me for returning to the history angle, but you're a resource I'm bound and determined to exploit. Are there any historical parallels we should watch for and avoid?
A: Talossan history, or world history?
Q: World.
A: Sclerosis. The late Roman Empire ceased to have anything to do with either the popular interest or the principles the Roman state was founded upon. For a period of years, you got to be emperor when the Praetorian Guard had spent the donative from the last emperor and thought you'd give them another pile of money. We must never allow our govenment to become sclerotic. Take for example the PC [Progressive Conservatives] in the Regipäts. It held an iron grip. It could count on enough votes for outright majority. There was no point to politics. If the PSD [Talossan Social Democratic Party] gains the same sort of sway, and keeps it for too long, it will become more a habit than a political movement. We must never be governed by a habit.
Q: Is this an indictment of the PSD? (Laughs.)
A: not at all. You asked me to look ahead to what might happen, and what we had to watch for. I see the PSD as strong enough that it should watch for this particular phenomenon.
Q: Because of its size or membership?
A: it is led by three forceful personalities.
Q: And what of our relationship with the now-decimated Kingdom? What do you see there?
A: Well, I don't think reconciliation is possible or desirable as long as Ben is in the Kingdom. But I do think we should always leave the front porch light on. There will be future spasms. People who aren't even citizens of the Kingdom yet will one day run foul of Ben, and come seeking a healthier place. Some probably have already considered it. The only two people in the Kingdom I don't give a shit about are Ben and Amy. Beyond that, I'd feel a duty to hold the door for almost anyone else who chose to come to the Republic--even those I don't care for, or have histories with.
Q: So, we're likely to be a refuge for the vilified Kingdomites? West Germany to Ben's East Germany?
A: Good analogy. We will see the term 'R-Bug' just as we saw 'C-Bug', 'P-Bug' and so on. The difference is that Ben can't really build a Berlin Wall.
Q: But is that all the Republic is going to be? The place where those injured by Ben Madison can be a part of an evolving society? Or will we forge a less Ben-centric identity?
A: I think that's what it will be to those in the Kingdom. for us in the Republic, I don't see us defining ourselves in terms of 'we're not Ben.' I see us defining ourselves in more positive ways. Rather than tell what we aren't, we will define who we are. And I think our future asylum seekers will see that, and it'll attract people.
Q: It seems your vision of the Republic at present and in the near future is hopefully optimistic, both for yourself and the Republic.
A: Unabashedly so. I have been given ample reason for that optimism. I think Ben will try every trick in his bag to get reactions from us. In most cases, we should just scoff and laugh and make a big joke of it. Ben uses ridicule well; if he tries to get us to hurt our own cause, he deserves some of his own medicine. But the difference is that we are actually amused, laughing, having fun.
Q: Sounds like you follow Saul Alinksy's rule concerning the use of ridicule: "There's no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating."
A: Alinsky was a great man. We miss him terribly.
Q: And I have to thank you again for introducing me to his work.
A: Glad to do so. I think his principles are instructive for us in the Republic. We have a powerful adversary, but he really can't hurt us unless we let him. Mostly we should just laugh, and make sure our people are having fun. When Mr Cooper and "Art Verbotten" resigned from the Regipäts, both had ceased to have fun. If I ever see the Republic becoming unfun, you can bet I'll say something about it.
Q: Who, in the course of your exposure to Talossa, has changed the most, in your view?
A: Very interesting question. I think it's been a huge growth experience for you.
Q: In more ways than one. The Great Conflict taught me some strategy, easily.
A: You came to Talossa at a relatively young age [Editor's note: 23, to be exact]. To a degree it has been the story of your twenties.
Q: Certainly. It was only after I turned 30 that I began to fight the good fight in a way that I should have. But this isn't about me! (Laughs.)
A: (Laughs.)
Q: Is there anything that I haven't covered that you feel is necessary for you to cover in this interview?
A: You didn't ask me who I thought the spy was. (Laughs.)
Q: I figured you would indulge us if you felt the need. But now I'm extra-curious. (Laughs.) So... Who was the spy?
A: Well, let's first profile a bit.
Q: Okay.
A: You'd be looking for someone with loyalist tendencies, preferably someone spineless, someone also in the TLP mailing counsels. I would rule out the actual TLP members. I would rule out Gjermund Higraff and Uglhán Cruceatúl. That leaves one person. That person would also have to have publicly shown as an invertebrate. Someone who acted like he was going to support me, then caved. The only person who fits all that is David Fauteux.
Q: Oh? So you've felt it was Mr Fauteux all this time?
A: I could be wrong. It could have been a verbal recon by fire on Ben's part. He could have just assumed that the TLP people talked me into coming back, and thrown some shit hoping it would stick. That would fit with his historical regard for the truth. But I tend to think he was tipped. And the only person I can think of who switched sides suddenly was David. After I was rejected, the group exchanged condolences and stuff for a bit, and I don't recall how privy to those David was. But there seemed to be information getting back to Ben. I can't prove this, but I've long believed it.
Q: Well, you make a good argument.
A: It began when Ben posted that TLP had talked me into it. That was either a random shot into the bushes or a careless outing of an inside source.
Q: Any last words?
A: Let's see. Thanks for giving me a chance to tell my side of a story that hasn't really been told from my standpoint. I don't pretend that all my motives were altruistic; after all, once Ben had begun to vilify me early and often, and poison people against me, I was bound to resent him and wish him ill. but I think about that less and less as time goes on, and more about the Republic and what it will be.
Q: Well, thanks so much for cooperating and being a part of this. Hopefully we can talk about more of such things in the near future.
A: I'll look forward to it. It's about time some of this stuff got out into the light of day. It's nice that people no longer consider me 'dishonest and insane.'
Q: No more than you've earned. (Laughs.)
A: (Laughs.) Stop that or I'll call down the fury of Poseidon on your ass!